Possibility to control beziers in time profile

[Animark]

Dear TVPaint Team,

some users asked in the past for a better control of the time profile of the camera, the keyframer and the multiplan fx. Some users in the Anime Studio Forum did also asked often. They all asked for a possibility to control the time profile curve using bezier control handles. Thats a feature I really love to have in TVPaint - since my first experinces with the keyframer. From now on, Anime Studio Pro have it and it looks very usable.
Watch this video from 0:10:00 on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... NHBT03xI#!

I don't have a big wishlist for future TVPaint features, but this one is my very big number one on that list . Here are some of the older requests for that, I am allowing me to push friendly:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1694
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2668
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4470

Greetings from Berlin,
Animark

(Edit: tried to embed the YT, failed and just linked it.)

[ZigOtto]

+1
... and separated curves (one curve per axis) !
but I imagine it's a big tuff to do, ... not for tomorrow I think .

[Sewie]

+1.

[Mads Juul]

+1

[Animark]

but I imagine it's a big tuff to do, ... not for tomorrow I think .

Yes, I can imagine also that it's not easy to do, but the TVPaint team made a lot of wonderful things in TVpaint. I wouldn't say that bezier handles are impossible to code .

Just an example, why I like to have that feature. Think on a more complex cam movements - some moves, somes stops, slow outs and slow ins on one BG. The first time I tried that using the keyframer I struggled a lot, because I tried to realize the movement in one time profile. It is possible to do, but its a way through the hell and back . Later I learned to use more than one keyframer for complex movements - rendering step by step to get good results. It works for me, even cause I have a traditional animation background and know, how to plan and time cam movements and how to do layouts. But if you like to do such operations by try, preview and error ... that's no fun at all.

Since about 4 years I am teaching TVPaint and worked a lot on myself, to improve my lessons and methods believing in the process of learning by doing. My experience with lessons in cam movements (cam, keyframer, multiplan) is, that I have to treat my students to do a complex cam movement in TVPaint - just one time, just for me, because I think it is important to know how to do it ... when sometime there is no After Effects around. Most of the students don't like those technically things at all and I like to confrontate them with things the don't like but have to work out.
All students are very enthusiastic learners the whole time, but after the complex cam lessons, really 90% of them say: "Yes, you're right - TVPaint is great ... for everything except for those more complex camera movements". Doing it in TVPaint is a little bit like building a card house. In the end, every students is doing their compositing in after effects, even when there is no need to to. OK, that is not the problem at all, but the only reason for that is this uncomfortable movement timing in TVPaint - and that's the sad part of the story, even when that point is on the wishlist for about 5 years.

Please don't misunderstand my critic - my intention is really to help to make TVPaint a better software. Some may say, that is not possible, TVPaint is perfect - I would say, yes, but there are some little things to do .

[Paul Fierlinger]

My view of teaching is that I look at animation classes as primarily drawing classes and don't encourage the use of complex technical shortcuts. If a student feels the need to use complex camera motions to create a desirable effect I will encourage them to draw the camera moves by hand; frame by frame, or use a simple camera pan in conjunction with hand drawn impressions of complex camera moves through drawing skills.

There are already too many animated films out there with all these AE generated effects that actually don't do anything to the viewer any more. Draw it frame by frame and it will become exciting even to viewers who don't care or even understand what methods were used, and this is because it fits into the setting of hand made art, art being the key word here.

[ZigOtto]

... I wouldn't say that bezier handles are impossible to code

of course it's possible*, but I would say it's a matter of timing,
I mean a matter of priority in the main developpement roadmap, and we haven't actually all the cards to know
if it will be released in few weeks, few months, or few years ...
in other words, this (old) request is probably somewhere amongst many others in the "to DO" list (which must be several pages long nowaday),
but is this one at the top or down to the bottom ...? none of us have any idea of the level of feasibility/priority for it.
Supposing it can be implemented just by adding some lines of code to the current core, it could come very quickly,
but if the dev. team estimates they have to re-work before the layer-engine for a more efficient new one,
I guess it could be a huge tuff and the release would be postpone to one of the next big upgrade (v.11 or v.12 ...?)

Here, we have the "easy" task to ask for new features and improvements to make tvpa the perfect killing animation tool ,
and the team have the "heavy" task to make them (one day) a reality, managing the calendar, the marketing and distribution,
(and of course respecting the compatibility with the older version), ... so, soon or later, I think it will come,
and I like to think the more we will be to beg for it, the sooner we will get it (...maybe not always true) ,
anyway, thanks for your incoming .

* ps : I can claim "it's possible" because it's (sort of) already existing through the KFramED plugin (a 12 years old plugin ... geez...),
the "Graph Editor" worked on every keyframable values, with independant curves, and in "Spline" mode (even if not "Bezier" type),
we could tweak them as well by modifying the "Tension", "Continiuty" and "Bias" parameters on each key,
so you could make some smooth (or abrupt) transitions regarding your curve design (see picts),
of course, you could add as many keys as wished within the timeline .

grapheditor1.png (9.65 KiB) Viewed 26369 times

grapheditor2.png (9.93 KiB) Viewed 26369 times

[Peter Wassink]

i added my vote for the dutch parliament last week so why not add my vote here as well... every vote counts!

+1


and Paul you are rigth off course, a hand drawn camera move is infinitely nicer and special but it also take a whole lot of more work to create.
And some type of jobs require controlled camera moves that don't attract attention to themselves.
this is now really hard to do in tvp if its more then a simple pan.

[Paul Fierlinger]

I entirely agree, Peter, so to that I add that I discourage my students from undertaking projects that would require more time and skills than my course offers. After all, students of medicine still need to go through an entire and lengthy period of internship before they can consider their studies completed. Any discipline that requires hand to brain skills cannot be expected to be undertaken at the outset of the learning curve.

BTW several people have asked me through PM how come I still teach since I claimed to be out of the profession last year. Well, my school offered me a deal I couldn't turn down: my former student of 8 years ago now teaches my course (hand drawn computer animation) and I merely lecture 1 hr a week plus sit in on major critiques.

[Animark]

There are already too many animated films out there with all these AE generated effects that actually don't do anything to the viewer any more.

Hi Paul, yes, I agree with your view of teaching and that there are too many films focused on effects instead of good stories out there. Our students are teached by different teachers in different disciplines. My part is to teach 2D digital animation mainly under technical aspects. So, complex camera movements are part of my job, even if most of the students will not use it in their animation shorts. I think, it is very useful for them, to know how to manage camera moves, specially when they have to decide between different possibilities and when they have to calculate the time they will need for projects.

* ps : I can claim "it's possible" because it's (sort of) already existing through the KFramED plugin

Hi ZigOtto, wow, I never heard of that plugin. I searched here in the forum and googled but didn't find any useful information about it. Do you know if it is possible to buy and use it today?

in other words, this (old) request is probably somewhere amongst many others in the "to DO" list (which must be several pages long nowaday),
but is this one at the top or down to the bottom ...? none of us have any idea of the level of feasibility/priority for it.

Yes, my posting was meant as a polite request to the team. I am totally keen about the TVPaint team and their sympathetic ears to the community. So I beg and hope that they will realize bezier controls somewhere in the future - it would make some things a lot easier .

[ZigOtto]

... wow, I never heard of that plugin. I searched here in the forum and googled but didn't find any useful information about it. Do you know if it is possible to buy and use it today?

to buy it ? alas, I don't think so, it seems to be discontinuted (not supported anymore),
it has been built on Aura (end of the last century ...) by IO-Labs.
to use it ? ... yes, surprisingly, it's still working (with some cautions and restrictions however),
that is meaning an excellent job from the tvp team to provide compatibility with old plugins such as this one from the Aura days.

[Fabrice]

Yes, my posting was meant as a polite request to the team. I am totally keen about the TVPaint team and their sympathetic ears to the community. So I beg and hope that they will realize bezier controls somewhere in the future - it would make some things a lot easier .

This is in the "do to" list.
However, it's a complex development, so we can not do a simple update to implement it.

[Animark]

Hi Fabrice,

thanks for your feedback, it is good to know, that the TVPaint team keeps it in their minds . I'll be very patient.

[Elodie]

Not in mind in fact, but on a big paper board (4 sheets filled of features to add and behavior to fix)