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Hi. I'm currently trying to decide between 3 different programs to animate a feature film. My choices are: TVPaint, Toon Boom Digital Pro, and Flipbook Pro.

I have a few questions about TVPaint that I'm really hoping someone can answer for me:

1: Is the processing power it would take to work on a film resolution size project (this is one of the things I'm torn on between going with a bimap program like TVPaint, or a Vector based one like Toon Boom). Will a 2 to 2.4GHZ, 2gigs RAM, Intel Macbook suffice, or would a film size project run very slowly even on that? Or would working at HDTV resolution be a better idea, and then having it upconverted to film later be a better idea? That said, would HDTV resolution work without much lag on the set-up I previously mentioned.

2: I've been trying to read up on how to do multi-plane camera effects... panning and such, and I'm finding the process very clinical... not very intuitive. I read up on it in the manual a bit, but it still didn't quite make sense to me. Not only did it not make much sense to me, but I didn't see how you could do more arced (circular) type of moves, as opposed to just straight lines... what am I missing here? Is this "X Effects" thing really as complicated as it seems?

3: Along those same lines, if I can only draw to the very edge of the frame, how can I make a background big enough to pan or zoom out from, or how can I start an animation off screen that enters the frame?

Anyway, while TVPaint seems to have the most bells and whistles and over all options, I'm very daunted by the fact that it's not nearly as intuitive as some other programs, the manual doesn't seem to be wonderfully easy to understand (I found the section on B Splines... which I would really have liked to know more about... to be very brief and not very well explained) and I'm not finding a whole lot of helpful tutorials... they're sort of sporadic, and few.

Any help in answering some of these questions and issues would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

1. Processor speed should be no problem. What you need is much disk space, so think of at least one external disk.

(Full) HDTV is film size. 1920 x 1080 px is nearly 2K, good enough to be transferred to 35mm. Normally you won't need to work in 4K, but maybe some client demands that for a certain purpose.

You shouldn't decide about bitmap vs. vector just because of processor speed. Computers are cheap. I recommend you think about which style you want to work in. Personally, I couldn't do with all the nuances only a bitmap based program provides. Again, this also depends on your client's wishes.

3. I was confused by this concept as well, but now I know how it works. Basically, you keep your bigger-than-project BGs in separate files. If you do a pan, TVP has access to everything in every open file, so it gets the BG from one file and places it into another. (There are several ways to do this.)

2. The Keyframer as well as the Multiplane effect are not limited to straight movements. At any moment in time you can set additional keyframes to control position, rotation and size. My only complain would be that you can't really judge the result unless it's rendered. Because I like to play around a lot, I test multiplane setups in AnimeStudio which is amazingly fast for a 200$ program. OTOH, the Multiplane Wizard in TVP is the fastest way to create a basic setup.

You should think about how much of your planned work would really need such a special effect.

Thanks for your reply. The client is actually me... it's an independant film I'm doing.

So, 1920x1080 is fine to work in? But the aspect ratio is a bit different than film, no? Maybe I'm a bit confused here, but when I watch a movie on a HDTV, there are still bars in the top and bottom of the screen because the aspect ration is a bit different. Sorry if this sounds like an annoying newbie question... I've just about got it, but not completely sure...

Another silly question... when I read "2k" and "4k" (as I keep seeing in doing my best to read up on this stuff), is that refering to the first number in the resolution?

The vector vs. bitmap thing is something I'm also trying to figure out as I experiment with the free versions of the programs.... trying to find which one I find my style in, and also somethings as far as I like working with vectors sometimes in the sense that I find them easy to animate (copy the image to another frame, move a pivot point, copy that image to another frame, move the pivot point again). In reading a bit on TVPaint, it seemed like I can maybe do this with the B Spline, or Benazine Spline, but I wasn't sure as the info in the manual wasn't as helpful as I would like and so I couldn't completely figure out how to use it.

On the other hand... vector stuff ends up looking more 'flat' and 'computery'. Some depth... but not nearly as much as bitmap. But I do think there is a bit of a trade off in time saved.

I soooort of understand what your talking about in regards to the larger background. But here's another little question.... if you're drawing all the way to the edge, and then want to fill the object in, when I was experimenting with this, it wouldn't paint fill the object unless I closed it by drawing along the border... but that leaves me with a black line of the edge instead of making the image apear as if it's going off the edge of the screen. How is this rectified? I think it kid of goes to my question about how you would get a character to walk on or off the screen if you can't draw off the frame (for example, in toon boom you do this by drawing off the frame area).

In regards to the multi-cam effect... I think I'll be using it a decent ammount... not all over the place, but enough for it to matter to me. Especially the idea of make smooth, curved pans... something along the lines of panning through a city scape like from a birds eye... the pan would have to arc back and forth while panning in as well.

Can you tell I'm anxiety ridden about this? These purchases aren't cheep... they're like an investment... and I want to be as sure as I can I'm picking the write program before I invest not just the money... but the time to learn it properly!

I do wish they had more instructive tutorials. I looked at some of the cresshead ones, but although he said he was going to do the whole manual, I can only find lesson 1.

Can you tell I'm anxiety ridden about this? These purchases aren't cheep... they're like an investment... and I want to be as sure as I can I'm picking the write program before I invest not just the money... but the time to learn it properly!

I wonder if you would become more tranquil if you reversed your learning curve direction. By this I mean; at the moment you have started by making a decision to make a feature film all by yourself, then you search for which software applications you should invest in, discovering in the process that there is an overwhelming amount of knowledge to pick up, then you end with dwelling on the question of how to make a camera move.

I am with Slowtiger here: first decide which style you prefer to work in and then buy the software that is best for that style (more about how to choose at the end). Then try your hand at animating a very, very short film and during that process you will begin to learn everything you need to know to make a little bit longer film... see if you can get any of these films accepted by film festivals; and again, first enter the smaller, less competitive regional festivals and then move on to the big, very competitive ones.

About 2 or 3 or perhaps more realistically, 5 years have passed by now and you will be amazed how much you have learned and how much more there is yet to learn before you can start working on your feature film.

Here's the helpful tip on how to decide which software: Look at the community forums and see which one appears to be the most helpful. Look for helpful discussions and make a judgment of the culture of individual groups and decided which one makes you feel the most comfortable, by which I mean, which group of people you think will be the most sincere in helping you out and stay with you.

By the time you will be truly ready to make a feature film (not sooner than 10 years), every software application you have mentioned here will be so far advanced that any information you might have learned about these now will be immaterial and useless.

I read "2k" and "4k"

Yes, these numbers refer to an image 2000px wide, or 4000px wide, roughly the number of pixels recorded on one 35mm frame. You will not need more than 2000 right now, 4000 is for Cinemascope or even Imax, or for 3D CGI space opera stuff. Remember that actual aspect ratios have slightly different numbers from this, but "2K" gives a magnitude to calculate with.

Filling some area with colour is possible even without a closed outline. There are several methods available, as well as leting a character enter or leave the stage.

I didn't try ToonBoom yet (although I have a copy here), but I've done vector animation in Anime Studio. The workflow you describe is correct, however, the result will always look like "this image was copied and then tweaked a bit". If that's your style, fine. If you really go for vector, have a look at Anime Studio which I can recommend. It is not for frame-by-frame animation, instead you build a character like in a 3D application, then move it via a skeleton rig and further adjust vector points.

I read your postings as if you haven't decided yet about an aspect ratio for your film, or a certain style. I'd recommend the same as Paul: do something short for now and get familiar with the workflow. Maybe do some test animation of one scene from the feature. Whatever software you finally chose, be aware that you will need quite some time to learn it and become versatile in it. From my own experience I'd say you will need at least half a year before you could create anything fluently. These applications are complex, to say the least.

As to which software to use: I definitely advocate TVP here because it has the greatest range of possible styles. It is very stable, and it is worth its money. But you don't have to restrict yourself to just one software - if a certain scene calls for other tools, just use additional software. I shift between programs all the time, mainly TVP, Photoshop and Anime Studio.

Cool. Thanks a ton for the replies guys. I understand entirely what Paul is saying, and I know exactly how it sounds with me coming and asking questions like "how is the camera going to move" and stuff at this stage, but perhaps to give you a small idea of what this project is and what I've done with it so far will give you an idea of what I do with such a 'bite off more then you can chew' attitude:

The project is an animated Rock Opera. Doesn't sound like such a big deal until you take into account that it is highly orchestrated (all real musicians... just recorded the wind insturments yesterday actually), sort of a dense mixture of rock and classical, with about 3 of the pieces (there are 28 songs in total) being full on symphonic/rhapsody type numbers, very large in scope. The kicker, and what the classical musicians have all been taken aback by, is that I have no training as a composer... I'm self taught. The oboe player told me yesterday that she plays works of composeres with masters degrees who don't write parts as fluid and melodicly sensible as mine. I also performed all the guitar, bass, piano, and sang all the vocals (though there are a couple songs I'll be re-recording the vocals with a female voice eventually), including the choir.

To top that off, I mixed everything, and engineered all guitars, bass and vocals on my own, having no prior experience as a mixer/engineer, or with the programs involved. I just dove in, and did it, it's been frustrating at times, and taken a couple of years, but I am now about 3/4 done with all the music.

In other words, I'm not the type to take things slow or be put off by the fact that I haven't a clue what I'm doing at first... but I do like to gather as much info as possible before I make the complete jump, and then attack it like there is no room for failure!

I do have to say though, to one of your other points, I have found these forums to seem the most 'community' like, and friendly. The Toon Boom ones seem a bit distanted or something... not as warm?

Anyway, thanks again, and if you care to hear a bit of the music that I started this prroject with (though I'll probably re-mix these songs and re-do the rythm guitars eventually), you can check out 4 of them here:

myspace.com/colegentlessymphonicrockrevival

You're a different sort of newbie, that's for sure, so I'm really curious to find out how well you can draw....

Ha ha. I draw decently... but limited (better than my spelling though!). Not nearly as good as some, but actually, I'm not nearly as good a musician as most either. What I excel in is putting my limited talents together in ways that make the sum of the parts seem like I'm much better at each seperate thing than I actually am!

We'll see how that translates to drawing and animating. I've spent the past few weeks getting my drawing chops back up... I was a portrait artist back in high school, but I never could draw anything creative... just figured it wasn't in me, so I stopped drawing when I was in my early 20's. Well, 15 years later, I decided to start seeing if I cold still draw, and watched a bunch of youtube videos on drawing, and found that I could not only still draw, but I could be creative with it, and develop characters without looking at people... that may sound elementary to most, but it was something I truely didn't think I had in me.

Problem is, my drawing style is generally kind of realistic... even when I distort the porportions to make it a bit more cartoony, my shading style... especially the eyes, come across as realistic, and I recognize that this would pose a problem in trying to animate them, so I'm going to have to experiment a bit, and probably pull back, maybe make the characters a bit more basic... I'd actually probably like the animation to have a much rougher kind of look... but we'll see.

Anyway... there ya go... way too much information for you, I'm sure.

A rock opera? That's just so ... 70's ...You must be crazy! *g*

I like this kind of craziness, especially if it leads to unique films. Please go on, and feel free to ask here anytime.

You might want to have a look at "Fantastic Planet" (La Planète Sauvage) by René Laloux. It's one of the very few animated features with (kind of) realistic humans and a graphics style featuring lots of pencil and shading. Don't judge from the youtube clips, look at some stills and maybe rent a DVD. I'm not saying it's a good film, but you can study how Laloux (and Roland Topor who worked with him) solved some problems with shadings in movement.

Since you want to do it all by yourself, it could be an option to work in "enhanced cutout" style. This could reduce your workload drastically, especially if your style involves a lot of shading. But to decide this one needs to have a look at the designs and the storyboard.

You are honest, how refreshing. But the following you might want to rethink:

Problem is, my drawing style is generally kind of realistic... even when I distort the porportions to make it a bit more cartoony, my shading style... .

You see realistic proportions and eyes as a deficit and I see those traits as an asset! Finally someone who doesn't draw doey saucer size eyes! What you should do less of is to look at what others are doing and here I depart with Slowtiger; be yourself, just as you are when you have a conversation and you will get quickly ahead. Buy TVPaint Pro and ask away; you have at least two of us on your side to get quick answers to any quick questions you may come up with but it's still going to take you a few years before you can venture into a feature film. If you think not, you are setting yourself up for failure and that would be a pity.

I'd actually probably like the animation to have a much rougher kind of look..

That sounds right to me.

I have been using this software for about 7 years but I am only in my 5th year of being serious about drawing, film-making. So still a student, although an advanced one probably by now.

I would say this: if you can, make it a routine to come to this forum several times a day and click on "view new posts" and read every one of them, even the foreign language ones if you can. There is almost always a question someone has that you didn't think of and the responsiveness of the forum members is like being in a university class. Also never fear to ask a question because no one thinks you are dumb for asking and will really try to help you see what you need to see about your question.

Of course it is in the doing that you discover what your questions really are. I have been making short films (animating children's poems I wrote) and there is so much more to it than knowing the software and drawing, even though those are the basics.

I have just come to a point with my current film where the character (a baby in this case) just takes over and shows me who he is...it's actually a little spooky his seeming to have a life of his own. I draw semi-realistic style which keeps me on my toes with regard to anatomy for sure.

Your project sounds wonderful (my husband is a composer) and you sound like a Renaissance Man, working all the jobs yourself.

How did you decide on the software that you're considering? Did you look at Toon Boom's Animate (new-less expensive than Digital Pro, similar capabilities)? Are you interested in other options? You have a fairly interesting price range with your three choices.

What sort of graphics tablet?

I have a wacom intuos 3 9 x 12 and I looooooooove it. I used to have a 6 x 8 and there's no comparison. Bigger is better.

I hate vector drawing so the choice was easy. I first learned animation software on something called Deluxe Paint Animation back in the early 90's. We taught children's computer classes and we used DP to teach with. I grew to love bitmap drawing even though we were only drawing with a mouse back then.

TVP is the up-to-date version of Deluxe Paint, at least it has a lot of the same features---only brought into the 21st Century. Of course it is light years ahead of what we had back then. I am so grateful this software exists as I have found nothing like it anywhere and we explored a lot of software when I decided I wanted to make 2D hand-drawn films about 5 years ago. Then I discovered I had to stop and just really learn to draw.

To me the cost of the software, computer and tablet are reasonable because they are the best tools to use to meet my goals and I would always put my money into good tools no matter what I was trying to achieve.

I also have SpeedEdit (NewTek's editing program that comes with Video Toaster). I have a stand-alone copy and don't even use VT anymore.....just SpeedEdit. It is really wonderful too. So there is another expense because you need a good NLE. I see it all as an investment, not an expense, to use Obama's current wording.

Have you seen this music clip? I am touched and amazed by it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us-TVg40ExM

Thank you all for your insights, they've all been helpful and noted.

Paul, I went to your website and I loved the animation of the film you're working on. As a matter of fact, when I had been on this site about a week ago, I saw a clip, which I now figure must have been yours, of a guy getting on to a double decker bus in london. My girlfriend and I loved the look and feel of it, and she thought it would be a good approach and direction to a degree for what I'm doing. I really like the wobbly sort of look of the movement. It's very organic, which is right up my alley.

Anyway, here's one more little question: I've been reading up on the 8bit vs. 16bit thing, and from the best I can find, TVPaint is still in 8bit. Now, does this end up affecting the quality significantly once it is being up-converted to film (assuming I'm working in HDTV mode)? I also noticed, and wonder if this has any bearing on the line quality as I"m working... cause I"m noticing in my experimenting the past couple of days that the lines are a bit... I don't know... broken up mabye?

User 767: I've looked at Toon Boom Animate as well, though not quite as closely. I've also been looking at Flipbook, which seems easy as pie, but kind of short on features. I'm working on a 21" Wacom Cintiq. But to answer your questions, I"m mostly stuck between Toon Boom DP and TVPaint because they appear to me to be the two best for their respective ways of working. But the price difference is wide, and if I go with TVPaint I plan on also getting a Macbook to work on.

8bit is good enough for hand-drawn animation, especially when transferred to film. Line quality is not affected by this.