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FX Stack + Shaker
Posted: 30 Dec 2023, 22:43
by ghin
Hello,
I am attempting to have two characters 'strike' each other and applying a brief 'camera shake' to show 'impact'.
I cannot find a way to do this in a simple way. Please let me know what I am doing wrong.
I am merging all layers, then I am starting FX stack. I then add the Shaker FX. I add a key to the beginning of the shake (set to some value) and a key to the end of the shake (set to 0). Then I set another key to 0 on the next instance until the next moment the characters may strike each other, and then repeat adding a key set to some value, then another key at the end of the shake set to 0. This is difficult as I am doing a fight scene and there are lots of little moments with impacts. In addition to this, I find that occasionally when I apply the FX stack, the shaking occurs whether or not the FX stack is applied to the key or not, and may occur on the entire animation for the entire length of the animation.
Am I doing this the wrong way? This seems unnecessarily complicated for what I would usually just move a camera around for in a few frames in other softwares and then reset to normal position and I do think I am doing this in a rather roundabout inefficient way because I just don't fully understand the nuances of the software.
Thank you for your help.
Re: FX Stack + Shaker
Posted: 31 Dec 2023, 09:25
by slowtiger
- Remember that any FX is only applied to the frames you select in the layer. So if you select only the few frames at the impact there will be no shaking elsewhere.
- You can select and shift the FX keyframes to another position in time, so the same effect will be applied to different frames.
Re: FX Stack + Shaker
Posted: 31 Dec 2023, 13:45
by D.T. Nethery
I think you can make it work with the Shaker FX (see Slowtiger's notes above), but it might just be better to do a "traditional" camera shake. Make the project overscale so you have some border around the edges to allow the camera to move beyond the normal border during the shake (so maybe over-scale by 120% - 200% depending on how violent the camera shake will be. If the scene is already created , you can Modify the Project to create a border , just make sure when you Modify Project you uncheck the box "Stretch To New Size" so it will keep the artwork the same size/proportion, but will add blank border area around the edges . Then you may need to extend the background and/or the characters a bit to account for the camera shake moving beyond the normal border.
You can set the Camera Time Profile for a "shaking" effect. I will usually set three camera positions: CENTER and Extreme UP and Extreme DOWN. Play around with the number of points and the spacing on the curves on the Camera Time Profile to get the camera shake effect you want. Linear mode tends to give a harder/sharper shake while Spline mode will give a softer shake (especially if you spread out the points over more frames). Adjust the spacing on the points until it looks right to you. The camera tool is getting a major revamp for v.12 and this sort of thing should be even easier to do when v.12 comes out.
[click images to view larger]
- TVPaint_Save_Custom_Camera_Time_Profile_to_BIN.jpg (63.54 KiB) Viewed 5324 times
The resulting camera shake using the Camera Tool:
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Here is a camera shake keyframed with the Shaker FX -
[click image to view larger]
The resulting camera shake using the Shaker FX:
Re: FX Stack + Shaker
Posted: 31 Dec 2023, 17:55
by D.T. Nethery
For the Shaker, here are the coordinates I used. I only changed the Y (North-South/Up-Down) coordinate, but if you want some East-West/side-to-side action you can change the X coordinate, too. Again, by playing around with the amount of "shake" on the X and Y (plus you can adjust the "Seed", although I don't really understand what that does!)
and sliding the keyframes up or down the Timeline , you can adjust the shake so you get it just right. I didn't spend much time on this one , so it's just a basic shake. Refining the position of the keyframes a bit can make the shaking taper off more or less gradually as needed.
X and Y start at 0 .
The most violent shaking is at the start on the first frame after the hold , with other keyframes clustered closer to the start , then the amount of shaking tapers off to the end.
X = 0 and Y = 0 at the end.
- Screen Shot 2023-12-31 at 12.56.51 PM.jpg (64.47 KiB) Viewed 5293 times
[click on any of the images to see them larger]
- Shaker_Keyframe_No_5_returns to 0.jpg (87.1 KiB) Viewed 5293 times
Re: FX Stack + Shaker
Posted: 01 Jan 2024, 02:24
by ghin
D.T. Nethery wrote: ↑31 Dec 2023, 13:45
I think you can make it work with the Shaker FX (see Slowtiger's notes above), but it might just be better to do a "traditional" camera shake. Make the project overscale so you have some border around the edges to allow the camera to move beyond the normal border during the shake (so maybe over-scale by 120% - 200% depending on how violent the camera shake will be. If the scene is already created , you can Modify the Project to create a border , just make sure when you Modify Project you uncheck the box "Stretch To New Size" so it will keep the artwork the same size/proportion, but will add blank border area around the edges . Then you may need to extend the background and/or the characters a bit to account for the camera shake moving beyond the normal border.
You can set the Camera Time Profile for a "shaking" effect. I will usually set three camera positions: CENTER and Extreme UP and Extreme DOWN. Play around with the number of points and the spacing on the curves on the Camera Time Profile to get the camera shake effect you want. Linear mode tends to give a harder/sharper shake while Spline mode will give a softer shake (especially if you spread out the points over more frames). Adjust the spacing on the points until it looks right to you. The camera tool is getting a major revamp for v.12 and this sort of thing should be even easier to do when v.12 comes out.
[click images to view larger]
TVPaint_Camera_Shake_Example.jpg
TVPaint_Camera_Shake_Spline_Mode.jpg
TVPaint_Save_Custom_Camera_Time_Profile_to_BIN.jpg
TVPaint_Custom Camera Shake Time Profile Saved to Bin.jpg
The resulting camera shake using the Camera Tool:
---------
Here is a camera shake keyframed with the Shaker FX -
[click image to view larger]
Screen Shot 2023-12-31 at 12.15.05 PM.jpg
The resulting camera shake using the Shaker FX:
Thank you for your response D.T. Happy new year!
I have a few questions - when it comes to the camera time profile, this seems useful if I am wanting to adjust the camera over a period of time (likely for the whole animation). However, the time profile does not seem as useful if I am repeating the impacts (as one would during fight choreography) and wanting to vary the camera shakes between softer and harder hits. Am I correct in this? Looking at your example, it seems like I would need to set a camera profile with the shake I want, and then vary it but also keep track of each hit and then adjust it accordingly during the correct time in the time profile.
My next question is - for the Shaker method, I would still need to merge all my layers, correct? Since all characters/ background should 'shake' during the impact, the FX stack should be applied to a key of all merged layers.
Re: FX Stack + Shaker
Posted: 01 Jan 2024, 12:58
by D.T. Nethery
As I envision animating a scene where there will need to be repeated camera shake effects at different times in the scene , here is what I would do:
1.) Animate the entire scene without the camera shake effects.
2.) identify the points in the scene where the camera shakes need to occur (for example, when one of the characters punches the other as you described or a character slams into a wall , etc.)
3.) SPLIT the Clips at those points where the camera shakes will occur, so if there are going to be 5 different camera shakes, I will end up with 5 Clips.
4.) Apply the Camera Shake effect on the appropriate frames in each of the 5 clips. Then export the project with all clips in continuous sequence to .mov or .mp4.
So, using the example I showed above , let's imagine there is some sort of interaction between two or more characters happening in that background and at various points the characters punch or slam one another to the ground or otherwise create "impact" moments where a Camera Shake would be justified to enhance the impact. Split the scene into 5 (or more) clips and then each of the clips can have it's own Camera Shake applied, varying in length and intensity as needed.
My next question is - for the Shaker method, I would still need to merge all my layers, correct? Since all characters/ background should 'shake' during the impact, the FX stack should be applied to a key of all merged layers.
You don't necessarily need to merge the layers. With individual layers you could set the FX Stack to Apply to All Layers or save the Shake FX in the FX Bin and then apply it to each layer individually.
- Screen Shot 2024-01-01 at 7.56.57 AM.jpg (31.24 KiB) Viewed 5230 times
- Screen Shot 2024-01-01 at 7.57.06 AM.jpg (35.18 KiB) Viewed 5230 times
Re: FX Stack + Shaker
Posted: 02 Jan 2024, 01:03
by ghin
D.T. Nethery wrote: ↑01 Jan 2024, 12:58
As I envision animating a scene where there will need to be repeated camera shake effects at different times in the scene , here is what I would do:
1.) Animate the entire scene without the camera shake effects.
2.) identify the points in the scene where the camera shakes need to occur (for example, when one of the characters punches the other as you described or a character slams into a wall , etc.)
3.) SPLIT the Clips at those points where the camera shakes will occur, so if there are going to be 5 different camera shakes, I will end up with 5 Clips.
4.) Apply the Camera Shake effect on the appropriate frames in each of the 5 clips. Then export the project with all clips in continuous sequence to .mov or .mp4.
So, using the example I showed above , let's imagine there is some sort of interaction between two or more characters happening in that background and at various points the characters punch or slam one another to the ground or otherwise create "impact" moments where a Camera Shake would be justified to enhance the impact. Split the scene into 5 (or more) clips and then each of the clips can have it's own Camera Shake applied, varying in length and intensity as needed.
Split Clips to apply Camera Shakes.jpg
My next question is - for the Shaker method, I would still need to merge all my layers, correct? Since all characters/ background should 'shake' during the impact, the FX stack should be applied to a key of all merged layers.
You don't necessarily need to merge the layers. With individual layers you could set the FX Stack to Apply to All Layers or save the Shake FX in the FX Bin and then apply it to each layer individually.
Screen Shot 2024-01-01 at 7.56.57 AM.jpg
Screen Shot 2024-01-01 at 7.57.06 AM.jpg
Thank you D.T. I will mark this thread as resolved as this answers my questions. Unfortunately, even though this is the answer, I am not happy with how unnecessarily difficult TVPaint seems to make what I think should be a simple task in most other animation softwares (adjusting camera position per frame). Hopefully TVPaint V12 makes this easier.
Re: FX Stack + Shaker
Posted: 02 Jan 2024, 15:16
by D.T. Nethery
ghin wrote: ↑02 Jan 2024, 01:03
Thank you D.T. I will mark this thread as resolved as this answers my questions. Unfortunately, even though this is the answer, I am not happy with how unnecessarily difficult TVPaint seems to make what I think should be a simple task in most other animation softwares (adjusting camera position per frame). Hopefully TVPaint V12 makes this easier.
Yes, I think it will be more like what you're accustomed to in v.12 , because the camera will be keyframeable . But try it using the Split Clip method I mentioned above. I think once you get used to it you'll find that it is not too cumbersome. Also, if you build up a library of custom camera shakes or other camera moves in the Bin, it's easy to reapply and adapt those pre-made custom camera moves to other scenes. I suppose I'm so accustomed to using TVPaint that it doesn't seem unusual to me. What system do you usually use for things like camera shake effects?
Something to remember when splitting a scene into multiple clips and then adding customized camera moves to each clip is that when you move on to the next clip you can click on the middle point in the camera field and select "Copy Last Point from Previous Clip" from the menu , which means that your starting camera position in the current clip will be exactly the same as the end camera position of the previous clip, so the camera positions will be consistent from the end of one clip to the start of the next clip.
Re: FX Stack + Shaker
Posted: 06 Jan 2024, 19:14
by ghin
I have always used Adobe Animate for camera shake effects (just key framing the camera) but I am finding it more and more difficult to justify their business practices hence my switch to TVPaint. Thank you for your help D.T., I will try to get accustomed to TVPaint...