10bit or more support in TVPaint? Anytime soon?

[PeterisSudakovs]

Hello!

Hope I am not offending anyone here, coming from the technical side of the post - am I missing something here? Is there some 10/12/16bit engine switch coming to TVPaint or is it doomed?
The colorist is furious, the finishing artist is too and the animation artists are non the wiser regarding why the material is not acceptable. So many issues to unravel so I come here after half a year of back and forth with my collogues that do the actual work using TVPaint.

I am the technical director, so think powershell, python, lto tapes, calibration, workflows, codecs and so on... My passion as of late has been to dive into film restoration (last 5 years+) and that has been a real eye opener. Working with film scans you really start to appreciate the beautiful nature of analogue. Have seen more than enough animation projects done on film. Know many software packages, mostly vfx in nature or image processing based (last one usually without GUI ha ha). So this issue here has me seriously confused.

In the world of HDR, OLED and Dolby Laser projection and so on... 8 bits just don't cut it anymore. On the last animation feature-film my studio did we run into huge problems with banding/stair stepping and so on... But the goal is 4K and as time moves on we will have to embrace the HDR thing. For live action feature films that we do here - they have ZERO problems with color-grading, tweaking, mastering/remastering and so on. What use is to have spectrometers, OLED, DCI projection and so on when the picture that comes in is just not acceptable for any further tweaking work in a calibrated environment. To even consider 4K HDR - whatever the flavor - the material needs to be 10bit minimum or more or it is not doable. Last animation feature that we did in regular SDR - it had major issues, some came from adobe side as usual and so on, but those can be worked around but when the material was colored in TVPaint - well, the gradients where just plain DEFECTIVE. That is the word colorist used to explain the problem with the material. You can add only so much grain/noise/dither to hide the main elephant in the room - that the problem is technical not artistic in nature. I understand that not a lot of artists can review the material on OLED or splurge and go to Dolby 6-point laser projection where you will have additional metamerism problems added to the existing ones (LoL) but once you see the banding issues on 20meter+ 4K laser projection or even a 65' OLED. And there are no easy fixes for the limited bit depth that is at the root of the problem here. The delivery standarts are becoming more demanding and everyone wants to be future-proof. It does not matter if it HDR or DolbyVision or something else that the project will need to be finished in. There are many tricks on the resolution side of things where super/sub sampling can be used but with bit depth - no such luck.

I like the TVPaint and what it offers and I see that the interface seems intuitive but if the material that comes out of it is defective by todays standarts I have to ask the question. I need to have 10bits or more. Ideally as ProRes422HQ 4:2:2 10bit or DNxHR 4:2:2 10bit or 12bit, can live without the 4:4:4 if that makes it easier. I can also transcode from dpx/tiff/exr whatever as long as the end result is something more. 16bit 4:4:4 would be ideal. So would OCIO color management. Love the linux option. Love the USB hardware keys.

Thank you all for any pointers regarding this issue.

[Hironori Takagi]

I basically agree with your idea.
In Japan, the animation production process is subdivided, the animator does not understand the difference between "8bit" and "16bit",
and the staff who specify the color is satisfied with their work by specifying 256 gradations.
Only the composite and editing staff are having a hard time dealing with dither and noise addition due to lack of gradation.

It is necessary to share the problem with each staff member who is divided, but I agree with the availability of 10/12/16 bit color.

[PeterisSudakovs]

Hello!

Is there any news on this? I am slowly starting to lean into the direction that this software is EOL if there is no hope for anything better than 8bits....

[Thierry]

Such things take a long time to develop, as they mean big changes to the core of the software.
If we do something like this (other colorspaces), it won't be for v11, but for the next major version. v11's engine is old, and making such changes might break something.

[PeterisSudakovs]

Can I ask if 16bit engine is planned or being worked on?

I do not care much about the versions and so on - it is totally understandable that this costs money and will result in new versions = with new licencing. My main question is - is this planned or is it better to call it what it is (EOL) and move on. In this day and age 8bits is a huge deal-braker. I would love to use the skills of the artists for other projects and do more creative stuff but I am at the crossroads where I need to look elsewhere if this is the case. I love the raster-workflow but I need more than 8 bits, even 10 would be good enough, 16 would be perfect, add OCIO color management and color-managed output via BMD cards = and this software package starts to make sense to continue to invest in.

Thank you!

[slowtiger]

Just to put things in perspective: the bigger part of worldwide animation production is quite happy with 8bit colour characters, as their style doesn't require cinematic FX, softly shadowed characters, or the like. It's only a small number of productions which really benefit from 10bit characters.

That said, it would of course be nice to have this option (and, if possible, make it an option, since I can foresee the troubles users with older hardware will have with this).

BTW: which other 2D animation software on the market offers 10bit colour? TB H. obviously does not.

[hellofilms]

It seems like Harmony can export in 16 but I guess that is based on an animation made in vector.
https://docs.toonboom.com/help/harmony- ... rmats.html

[slowtiger]

Their website is a complete failure - haven't been able to find even a table of basic product features. From their community forums and help text it seems it's all 8bit internally, but able to write in 16bit file formats (which doesn't add information).

[D.T. Nethery]

I basically agree with your idea.
In Japan, the animation production process is subdivided, the animator does not understand the difference between "8bit" and "16bit",
and the staff who specify the color is satisfied with their work by specifying 256 gradations.
Only the composite and editing staff are having a hard time dealing with dither and noise addition due to lack of gradation.

It is necessary to share the problem with each staff member who is divided, but I agree with the availability of 10/12/16 bit color.

This has certainly been my experience as an animator . I never gave a thought to the color being 8bit or 16bit , whatever. For me it was all about the drawing.
The only time I've ever really noticed a problem with 8bit is with the banding that occurs with gradients.

Just to put things in perspective: the bigger part of worldwide animation production is quite happy with 8bit colour characters, as their style doesn't require cinematic FX, softly shadowed characters, or the like. It's only a small number of productions which really benefit from 10bit characters.

I think I would agree with you in most cases , especially up until recently. However, as 4k (or higher) screens become more common , the limits of 8bit color is more apparent (for all the reasons that Peteris Sudakovs lists in his original post above.) I'm not necessarily saying I want it to go this direction, but that seems to be where everything is headed. For years as some people have beat the drum for 4K I have remained skeptical that traditional hand drawn style animation gains much from being created (and broadcast or projected) at 4K resolution. I recall a few years ago discussing this with animator Michel Gagné and it was his contention that the main thing 4K resolution does for animation is to highlight the inherent flaws in hand drawn artwork. (not to mention creating larger file sizes, longer render times, more storage space needed). But in fact, some clients are asking for 4K. The limits of 8bit color depth (such as banding) also shows up at 1080p and 2K resolution , but is more apparent at 4K. I have had this issue about the limits of the 8bit color depth brought up to me by a co-worker on a project who was doing compositing of TVPaint-generated elements in After Effects. Now you know why over the past year I've been asking about scripts that might make it possible to export line art from TVPaint to Harmony or Photoshop, with the layer structure intact (similar to the export/import script for TVPaint to After Effects), so I could continue to animate in TVPaint , but do the coloring in Harmony or Photoshop to deliver final color elements in 16bit for those who ask for it.

BTW: which other 2D animation software on the market offers 10bit colour? TB H. obviously does not.

Well, as mentioned above , compositing in Harmony is done with 16 bits per channel, so blurs and gradients are rendered in Harmony without banding , and Harmony exports in 16 bit color depth as transparent PNGDP4.

https://docs.toonboom.com/help/harmony- ... t%20colour


While it is not ideal for creating hand drawn animation compared to something like TVPaint, there is also Adobe Photoshop (which has options of 8bit, 16bit , 32bit color mode). Using a plug-in like The Animator's Tool Bar Pro makes the animation timeline in Photoshop more manageable , although still not ideal ; it's a very tedious experience, compared to the ease-of-use we enjoy in TVPaint. I would not recommend Photoshop for animating , unless you had no other choice , in which case The Animators Tool Bar Pro plug-in makes it at least tolerable for animating. However, for those who need the color to be rendered in 16bit mode it is an option to bring in line art layers from TVPaint (as transparent PNG image sequences), then color in Photoshop in 16bit color mode. It's not that difficult if the animation is all ON 1's or all ON 2's with no holds , no repeats, and no layers that have staggered exposure... if every layer has the exact same timing and lines up from start to finish on the timeline , it's not too time consuming to load the PNG image sequences into PS. Where it becomes tedious is if the layers are not all exactly the same , with the animation exposures varying between 1's , 2's , or holds , or if you have repeated cycle animation which then transitions back into new animation, then back to the repeated cycles. In those cases you must manually reconstruct the original timing on the Photoshop Timeline. It's a big headache.

If there were an export/import script (similar to the AE script) which allows for scenes to be exported from TVPaint and then imported into Photoshop with the layer structure intact , it would make this workaround (to gain 16bit color depth) more of a streamlined process. I don't know if such a script could be created. I realize that it may be possible to do basic flood-fill coloring of line art imported into AE (?), although that's not something I've ever tried, so I don't know how it works. I've been intending on running a short test to see how it would work to import a scene from TVPaint to flood fill color in AE. I'm just more familiar with using the fill color tools in Photoshop or Harmony. (coloring in Harmony is very efficient and automated ... with Photoshop you can create Actions to automate some coloring functions)

(animation timeline in PS, with Animator's Tool Bar Pro plug-in)

Just to be clear, I'm not in any way eager to abandon TVPaint for Harmony (even less for Photoshop) for animation or coloring. But I don't think it helps to ignore the issues which Peteris Sudakovs mentions in his post above. If you have clients who need 16 bit color , some sort of workaround pipeline to get artwork from TVPaint to Harmony (or Photoshop) to color it and output it in 16bit color mode is vitally important, until the next gen TVPaint is available. This is also not a new discussion ... going back five or six years on this forum you can find discussion regarding the limits of 8 bit color mode. (mostly in relation to difficulties with gradients and transparent effects).

[D.T. Nethery]

BTW: which other 2D animation software on the market offers 10bit colour?

There is also OpenToonz , which has the options of rendering in 8 bit or 16 bit color depth.

https://opentoonz.readthedocs.io/en/lat ... ation.html

"Channel Width: sets the color depth for rendered images; choices are 8 bit or 16 bit per color channel."

[slowtiger]

I still don't see the benefit in Harmony's way to do things: whatever I paint will stay 8bit even if the file is 16 bit. Only a procedural gradient or blur will be rendered in true 16 bit.

Oh well. Right now I have to deal with a sound designer who wants my 16bit audio delivered as 24bit audio. I can explain that it doesn't make a difference, but no. And they're too lazy to convert the stuff themselves.

[NathanOtano]

If there were an export/import script (similar to the AE script) which allows for scenes to be exported from TVPaint and then imported into Photoshop with the layer structure intact , it would make this workaround (to gain 16bit color depth) more of a streamlined process. I don't know if such a script could be created. I realize that it may be possible to do basic flood-fill coloring of line art imported into AE (?), although that's not something I've ever tried, so I don't know how it works. I've been intending on running a short test to see how it would work to import a scene from TVPaint to flood fill color in AE. I'm just more familiar with using the fill color tools in Photoshop or Harmony. (coloring in Harmony is very efficient and automated ... with Photoshop you can create Actions to automate some coloring functions)

Definitely can be created. There is a nice way after effect imports layer structure psd sequences i wish photoshop had
That is, instead of creating a script, you can just export your TVP project as layer structure psds and when you import in after effect it can be merged "by layers" as compositions, so you get a master comp with one layer per layer and then a sequence in each comp. Which is enough to get structure and do some compositing above tvpaint exports (i'm not even talking about MJ tvpaint export/import script or json scripts).

I wish there was a way to export from after to tvpaint and get back structure ^^ drawing in after is really limited but you can have a look at the paint and stick plugin which is a bit heavy and buggy but can help with coloring. imo you can do all the raw shapes with plain colors in tvp so you get masks, and then finish everything in after (i don't see the use of photoshop above after because tvp can do anything phtosohop does for drawing, and after everything photoshop does and even better for compositing)

I really think unless tvpaint becomes a true solution for compositing, we should just avoir gradiants and grain and all that stuff and just export line and color. So tvpaint really doesn't need to have more that 8 bit. You just convert it to 16bit when you get into after or anything else

[D.T. Nethery]

I really think unless tvpaint becomes a true solution for compositing, we should just avoid gradiants and grain and all that stuff and just export line and color. So tvpaint really doesn't need to have more that 8 bit. You just convert it to 16bit when you get into after or anything else

Yes, I suppose that could be the simplest approach , although I still hope next gen TVPaint can have the option for higher than 8-bit color depth.
So you're saying that it is ok if the flat fill-color is 8-bit , because it is really only the gradients and stuff that are causing the problems ? Line art and flat fill-color can continue to be 8-bit and is then converted to 16-bit in AE ?

If the issue is really just a problem of generating gradients, grain , and layers with semi-transparent edges (such as smoke/fog , fire effects, glows) within TVPaint (8-bit) which causes problems for compositors further down the production line (because of banding and other artifacts), then the rule could be to only render gradients and transparency FX after the artwork from TVPaint has been imported into After Effects (or Davinci, or Nuke, etc.)

[D.T. Nethery]

If there were an export/import script (similar to the AE script) which allows for scenes to be exported from TVPaint and then imported into Photoshop with the layer structure intact , it would make this workaround (to gain 16bit color depth) more of a streamlined process. I don't know if such a script could be created. I realize that it may be possible to do basic flood-fill coloring of line art imported into AE (?), although that's not something I've ever tried, so I don't know how it works. I've been intending on running a short test to see how it would work to import a scene from TVPaint to flood fill color in AE. I'm just more familiar with using the fill color tools in Photoshop or Harmony. (coloring in Harmony is very efficient and automated ... with Photoshop you can create Actions to automate some coloring functions)

Definitely can be created. There is a nice way after effect imports layer structure psd sequences i wish photoshop had.
That is, instead of creating a script, you can just export your TVP project as layer structure psds and when you import in after effect it can be merged "by layers" as compositions, so you get a master comp with one layer per layer and then a sequence in each comp. Which is enough to get structure and do some compositing above tvpaint exports (I'm not even talking about MJ tvpaint export/import script or json scripts).

When you say "definitely can be created" , do you mean that it would be possible to create a script that will allow TVPaint projects to be imported with layer structure intact into the Photoshop animation timeline ? My main interest in coloring in Photoshop is that it allows for delivering color artwork that has 16-bit color depth (for the reasons mentioned in the original post above) and I am familiar with how to semi-automate much of the coloring process through Actions in PS. I've done this for relatively short, simple scenes , exporting from TVPaint as PNG image sequences, then importing to Video Group layers in the Photoshop Timeline, coloring the line art on new layer(s) created in Photoshop. A script that would keep the layer structure intact when importing into PS would be so much faster.

[NathanOtano]

So you're saying that it is ok if the flat fill-color is 8-bit , because it is really only the gradients and stuff that are causing the problems ? Line art and flat fill-color can continue to be 8-bit and is then converted to 16-bit in AE ?

Yes exactly. Bits only help when yo need to calculate complex operations. It's like having more digits in an operation, having 2*3 and 2.54898984*3.1654658464 is less precise and so you create more visual steps in gradients (but even with steps in gradient, adding some grain just helps not seeing it anyway...).
Basically if you have no gradient and blending mode, 8 bit is far from enough cause you use pure color. Unless you are painting in TVPaint with obscure blending modes for painting animation. I don't see anybody needing to be more precise than 8 bit to choose flat colors...

So yeah you put it in after, convert with 16 bit and begin to do complex operations in that software and you will not see any differrence between having a 8 bit export and a 16 bit export basically. If you have some gradient, you can either do them again in after or edit them anyway since the "other operator" multiplying the gradient is in 16 bit (like if you were doing 2 * 3.1455684). Again almost invisible grain just smoothes gradients anyway.

It is really why there is a compositing in the first place. Drawing in 16bit is much more painful for your computer xD

When you say "definitely can be created" , do you mean that it would be possible to create a script that will allow TVPaint projects to be imported with layer structure intact into the Photoshop animation timeline ?

I think so yes, it's possible with after effect and harmony so why not. Even in flash it could be done I think. Unless photoshop didn't develop the right scripting functions for the timeline which I doubt cause there is already lots of plugins for this animation timeline.

But if it's just for coloring artwork with flat colors, why don't you just color it in tvpaint? CTG layers are pretty good tools for this, i dont see how faster you would be able to do it in photoshop even if you have structure. The only thing that owuld make me want to export to photoshop timeline is to be able to have a mix between compositing like in after effect while still being able to draw.
Then if you export in 8 bit, juste convert all the resulting pngs in 16 bit and there should be not much of a difference while doing compositing unless it's not flat colors and gradients. But maybe i'm wrong...