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idragosani wrote:He really said TVPaint stole the idea of the Blue Pencil?

Yup...
http://animationpaper.com/tour-of-wip-gui-features/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Elodie wrote:Neonnoodle, what Erick tries to explain is that both notes and blue pencils are something from traditional animation, so there is no really need to say " they stole something from me", as inspiration comes from the same background (= traditional animation).

That's also why I don't really like when Niels write on his website we "stole the Blue pencil". It's like telling "they have a color palette, such thieves"

Elodie wrote:

idragosani wrote:He really said TVPaint stole the idea of the Blue Pencil? Blue was never a color used in digital drawing before PAP then?

Yup...
http://animationpaper.com/tour-of-wip-gui-features/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's not right . Wow, that's very disappointing to read. As Elodie mentioned, the Blue Pencil sketch panel has been there since TVP 7.0 ("Mirage") in 2003 , right ? I don't remember when PAP first came out (I could never use it because the Mac beta version didn't really work very well, very buggy at that time ) , but as others have mentioned that's sort of ridiculous to claim that anyone "stole" something like the idea of underdrawing in blue , tie-down drawing in black, since that is a concept that comes directly from traditional animation on paper (Col-Erase blue pencil for underdrawing , black graphite for the final drawing on top).



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Elodie wrote:Lite version, pencil test version, painting software for tablets... yes, all those ideas are dedicated to specific use and users, but they all have in common to be casual software, not professional software.

Saying Pencil Test software isn't professional is an out of touch comment to make don't you think? surely you don't mean it? kind of blows away TVPs entire ethos? can't think what else I'd use it for other than frame by frame animation...

Also makes you wonder why Studio Ghibli would spend so much on Toonz Linetest, those casual animators!

You are comparing oranges to apples. For a large studio to buy a pencil test program for many artists who only draw makes sense. For independent professionals it makes little sense, because they have to wear many hats from storyboard artist to camera operator.

Even for small and medium size studios it makes sense to have their entire staff master more than a simple pencil test program because all have to at times do the work of others. I don't even understand the practical functionality of a pencil tester with no camera abilities -- this to me is not a serious program -- it's for cafe slouchers to impress the chicks at the next table. For 50 bucks that's a pretty good deal.

Farrow wrote:

Elodie wrote:Lite version, pencil test version, painting software for tablets... yes, all those ideas are dedicated to specific use and users, but they all have in common to be casual software, not professional software.

Saying Pencil Test software isn't professional is an out of touch comment to make don't you think? surely you don't mean it? kind of blows away TVPs entire ethos? can't think what else I'd use it for other than frame by frame animation...

Also makes you wonder why Studio Ghibli would spend so much on Toonz Linetest, those casual animators!

Classic situation of misunderstanding sentences and words between french and english speaking people.

Paul perfectly understood what I meant =)

To complete his post : even studios who own 30 licenses or so, need a versatile software : pencil test, in-between, cleaning process, coloring... it's easier to do all these steps within the same interface than juggling with a bunch of different software.

From the standpoint of what makes sense for a studio or professional independent filmmaker, I agree with what Elodie and Paul are saying about TVPaint and its features.

However, there is another angle. There are many, many people who want to learn 2D animation all over the world, but who do not have access to a school either for reasons of cost or geography. It takes many years of practice to learn 2D animation, and during those early years, pencil testing is pretty much all you need. I was not a student until very recently and could not qualify for educational pricing on TVPaint, but I have been learning animation for the better part of 15 years. For most of the time, I used PAP and Digicel Flipbook, because the price of a low-level version of Flipbook was within my budget. Without access to this type of affordable beginner's software, I would not have been able to learn to animate.

Sure. But in that case is there a need for yet another beginner's, low cost software? I can understand the need for an intermittent, next level software, for a student to expand her skills beyond drawing poses and inbetweens into the realm of clip continuity through smart editing and camera work. There seems to be a missing link in the marketplace and this is why I thought it would be practical for TVP to enter this mid-priced market; a sort of prep-step into full blown TVPaint. I'd keep it below HD, still without colors (or a very minimal range) and with a very simplified storyboard tab.

@Neonnoddle : when you want to play piano, you can start with a low cost digital piano. Then, when you master your passion, you can purchase another piano, more powerful, whatever if you are a professional or a hobbyist.

That's the same with animation : you can start with a low cost software (among the numerous one which already exist) then, later, decide to purchase something more professional to improve your art.

That's said, there is no really need (or even time or money) for us to develop a third software.

Elodie wrote:@Neonnoddle : when you want to play piano, you can start with a low cost digital piano. Then, when you master your passion, you can purchase another piano, more powerful, whatever if you are a professional or a hobbyist.

That's the same with animation : you can start with a low cost software (among the numerous one which already exist) then, later, decide to purchase something more professional to improve your art.

That's said, there is no really need (or even time or money) for us to develop a third software.

Considering that there is already some commercial software and also open source software for doing pencil tests (hell, in a pinch, you can even use Gimp with its animation plugin), having a TVPaint-based one isn't going to help anything and would likely result in weak sales and not be worth the effort to develop and support.

I see the light

I am surprised nobody's even mentioned Toon Boom's "from cradle to the grave" approach to selling software!
They sell software for teeny tiny little baby animators...
and software for big mega studios who pump out cartoons the way McDonald's makes hamburgers - by the gross.

I am very glad TVP has been in business all these years. The software business is not easy.

Since there is already software available for the student or hobbyist, why should TVP lower themselves to that level and compete with them?

One way to stay in business is to make sure you sell to the right customers.

For TVP, that means they are smart to concentrate on the market of customers who already have the money to buy their product.

TVP is a professional product, and once someone is ready for it, they will buy it and learn to use it.

So I think a "lite" version is not a good idea, and would actually do harm.

Or like the old saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Elodie wrote:@Neonnoddle : when you want to play piano, you can start with a low cost digital piano. Then, when you master your passion, you can purchase another piano, more powerful, whatever if you are a professional or a hobbyist.

That's the same with animation : you can start with a low cost software (among the numerous one which already exist) then, later, decide to purchase something more professional to improve your art.

That's said, there is no really need (or even time or money) for us to develop a third software.

You can look at it another way too. That is, those who can't afford a top end piano/keyboard start at at a lower end with less workstation capabilities with a specific brand that has a specific way of doing things. If you have good experience with a cheaper Roland keyboard, you're likely to opt for a much nicer roland keyboard when the time to upgrade comes along if they make a keyboard that has the features you're in need of.
If you start out with a cheap casio, you can go with any of the top brands. You don't yet have the comfort or habits or loyalty that come from using a specific architecture. 1 source recommends this brand, another, that. You can try them at a friends studio, but that's different experience than comes with a purchase based on years of familiarity.
I've known a few 3d animators that stuck it out with 1 particular 3d animation program just because it's what they used in school and are most familiar with. Same logic here. I'm starting to see the same trajectory with toonboom's stuff, even.

I always thought something like the rooms would offer an idea as to what the software would look like. it'd basically all be the same version except with missing functionality in other versions. As long as they could all open the same native formats..

But as you said, there's no interest in a stripped down versions, so there will be no stripped down version.

Thank you Gochris, you totally put your finger on our course of action

TB also has the big advantage of being helped by Canadian government in many ways and their team is bigger than TVPaint's staff. So, it's easier for them to develop and support more versions of their technology, from young children to big studios.

But according to my experience, children Who grown up with computers are able to use TVPAINT and understant it much faster than many adults

@thunderdog : what if you start with à cheap digital piano and want later play on a concert piano ? You can't compare both and if à Roland makes good digital pianos, you'll prefer maybe à yamaha concert piano ?

Last year I hold an animation workshop with two friends at our college. Our main software was TVPaint. And even people which doesn't use the computer a lot understood the basics of TVPaint really fast. That's something I really like about TVPaint: You can start creating animations without knowing much about the software and while doing this you can step by step discover it's features and tools, if you need them.