Welcome to TVPaint Community forums !

lemec wrote:Goodness... I leave for a week and there's this huge and fascinating debate that has gone on in my absence!
...

youpi! M.C. Lemec is back !
and your first post-Annecy post is so substantial and well turned that it looks like a book excerpt !
I will "quote" some of you words to my students before the summer holidays, if you don't mind ...

btw, how did you find your few days stay in Annecy ?
and have you found some free times to see program(s) of the festival competition at Bonlieu ?

Annecy was AWESOME. I'll say this much... France certainly has their act together. They know how to make entertainment, and not to get caught up in making obscure and boring "art films". The town itself was very beautiful. I took a great many pictures. I also picked up a ton of books and a trio of framed prints to hang on my bare studio walls to inspire me. *sigh* I miss Annecy already. More on the trip and my adventures with Hervé, Fabrice and Thièrry later!

Sierra K Rose wrote:

You need to learn how to learn! That's the real secret.

Ah the conversation continues.

I would only change this idea to "You need to learn how YOU learn." The learning process can differ widely. Going through the process of making my first film I keep bumping into my learning edge which I enjoy.

Some people go through many exercises to develop their skills before they do a film. I did this in learning to draw for about 3 years, but I used my own project characters for the exercises so I'd know what my questions really are. I've used lots of different methods to become intimate with drawing movement: rotoscoping, models, reference, memory...it all has been very useful.

The one thing I can say about learning that we all share in common is this: You need to be interested in something before your true self will be willing to learn it! You can't learn something if it bores you any more than you can try and memorize the license plates of every car that passes by! Well, there are some savants who CAN, but they're functionally paralysed in normal society. I am interested (and therefore in the right frame of mind necessary to learn) by truly understanding the usefulness of a particular skill - knowing how it can be directly applied towards achieving a particular effect that I want -- but I still have to know what I want! It's not enough to have this FEELING of grave importance attached with whatever it is you think you want to study... It's when you UNDERSTAND that there is this PROBLEM that is making things difficult for you, and that you need to find a SOLUTION for it! Sometimes you will have to study the problem, and usually that means that you're not getting the effect you want! Find how things have gone astray from your intentions. See if your own own intentions have gone astray (or never existed in the first place)! Narrow it down to something you can understand... it may take weeks or even months to overcome it. There are those that will try and ward you off from figuring it out, and deem it as irreconcilably illogical. It will remain that way if you listen to them!

I also absorb information like a sponge when I'm on wikipedia as well, if only because I'm always on the lookout for good story material. Sometimes I learn a little about the way the world works and it helps me in designing my own worlds. My awe and wonder about how mysterious the world can be is replaced by an awe and wonder for how simply it all works! I also learn not to take these intricacies for granted and to some degree, they influence my work. The more I understand about the way things work, the easier it is to make decisions that aren't driven by pure randomness. The reward for my studies are that things start to fall into place a lot easier, as long as I step back and allow it to happen.

Sierra K Rose wrote:I was warned that I would get burned out with my idea if I used my film characters but this but really has proven to be great for me and seems to pull me through periods of discouragement because I am drawn by the story I want to tell (ha ha instead of the the story I want to tell being drawn by me.

Don't force yourself to draw subject matter that bores you. That will burn you out faster than anything! Drawing should always be a rewarding experience, so always make sure that whenever you draw, there's something in it for you. I may draw simple geometric primitives rather often, but it's rewarding for me because I recognize how every subject I draw is made up of these shapes, and that drawing a car or a plane or a boat or a person is really just the same exercise, with the primitives arranged to occupy space in the same manner as my subject. I also do not pursue jobs that do not interest me in the slightest. If it is not a comic book I want to read, an film I'd want to watch, a game I want to play, then it's a project that is doomed from the start and I will not motivate myself towards pursuing such a futile endeavour! It's at that point that I must redefine the core idea of the story that drives the project. To make it a story worth telling, a story I would like to see presented in its final form. When you want to practise with your characters, treat it as an opportunity to get to know them, to see how they would react in various situations. They might surprise you!

Now.. sensitive artists. Who knew?

Here I thought it was all just all "lines on paper"...

Heh! It IS all just lines on paper! (or pixels on a screen).

Rather than just study the lines on the paper, much more information can be had by studying your reaction to those lines on the paper. The artwork contains no people, no ideas, no feelings, no soul, just information encoded into a kind of bitmap; Information that is interpreted by us from which we perceive various subject matter which in turn triggers our imaginations; our imaginations are our ability to cobble together thoughts via logical interpolation or extrapolation based off of the information from our memories and past experiences related to the information we are immediately faced with. Different people may be predisposed to recall different things. While the process for manufacturing the thoughts usually follows some logical process, the thoughts themselves are not always logical.

The greatest power of the image is that we have no choice, no say in the matter of whether or not we want to perceive something besides the subject portrayed by the lines on the paper in the image. We are completely and utterly susceptible to our ability to interpret an image. We can no more easily shut off this ability than we can refuse to recognize patterns of light entering our eyes as more than patterns of light entering our eyes. We can only block out the image entirely from our sight with our eyelids.

"those who can, be....
those who cannot, teach."
Understanding all of the laws in the universe does not necessarily drive one to abide by them.

Mandalaholic wrote:"those who can, be....
those who cannot, teach."

Is there any solid evidence of skill being inversely proportional to one's teaching ability or teaching involvement? Don't I teach by way of demonstration?

Mandalaholic wrote:Understanding all of the laws in the universe does not necessarily drive one to abide by them.

Doesn't understanding something facilitate informed decisions? While ignorance may make decisions easier, does it really improve them?

Empty the mind Grasshoper.....Wacom Wacoff.

Why not answer any of my questions? At this rate, it might be mistakenly interpreted as concession.

Why rely on the quotes of others?

I want to hear a Mandaholic Original™! Accept no substitutes!

Are you really asking me the question, or yourself? The moral of the story is that there is no moral.

Mandalaholic wrote:"those who can, be....
those who cannot, teach."

Mandalaholic wrote:Understanding all of the laws in the universe does not necessarily drive one to abide by them.

I really want to know why you said these things. Yes, all of the questions I asked since you said this were directed towards you. Care to elucidate, at least for the sake of an interesting discussion?

Ok, I've been snickering a bit at this forum.. geez! Seemed to get pretty heavy handed there for a while. But this is what I admire about TVP users in general, I suppose. Independent thought, critical thinking.

I would also like to comment on the "Those who cannot do.." old saying. This is something with which I expressly disagree! I would say, that those who DO teach!
Here in Portland, a place with a very vibrant animation community of interested professionals, the tradition of teaching is alive and well.

Many independent filmmakers here take it upon themselves at some point, to teach the trade to someone new to the whole artform, either in an institution or school, or in private tutorship, such as I have done. (Both actually) -So I can say from experience, that I wouldn't be the animator I am today, wtihout the strength, help and insight of the individuals around me I've been lucky enough to learn from, in exchange for the price of nothing but a bit of friendship. Some of the best teachers out there, are the most amazing artists, and without them, the art or trade probably wouldn't flourish as it has. The internet is just a fantastic place to learn, and you'll find more teachers there than you ever could in person, if you're patient enough to watch and learn.

My two cents..
C

CartoonMonkey wrote:My two cents..

IMO, that's more like ten bucks

I want to provoke a debate with people pushing an anti-knowledge, pro-instinct agenda because I'm hoping for that day that someone will come along and offer an irrefutable argument or example of something that is important to drawing that is impossible to define, now and forever.

I had one other little brainfart while washing the dishes. Understanding implies knowledge. Knowledge does not necessarily imply understanding. You can know something but not understand it. You can't understand something without knowing it, though. Sometimes I feel this way about my dealings with people. There are some people I know, but don't understand, and sometimes I meet someone for the first time who I can understand, and just from that encounter, know a few unspoken things about them.

I think one of the greatest failings between teachers and students is when the teacher conveys knowledge and the student does not understand. I've had arguments with people who read a lot of books and obtained a lot of knowledge, but didn't understand most of it and later went on to reject what they had learned. To understand something means to be able to apply the knowledge towards solving some problem and to be aware of how the mechanisms by which the knowledge affects the problem itself. This is something I feel was lacking from many of the teachers I experienced in the past. It wasn't until recently that I progressed beyond teaching myself beyond developing drills to solving problems directly in respect to a goal, and that I began making myself aware of my goals or setting goals for myself.

Oh don't get me wrong! there is nothing wrong with teachers! I've had some very awesome teachers. I think those who understand the quote also understand how it should be applied. I would just rather be given my Drama lessons from a seasoned Broadway professional, than some ninth grade drama coach who has never set foot on stage. If I was a tweaker I'd rather be counseled by a confidant who has already gone through the darkness and lived to tell about it. If I wanted to be a successful animator I'd go to Paul for help. There are some decent and very informative threads here, although a little less talk and a little more drawing could enhance your drawing skills, and who knows you may gain a better understanding of proportions.

No problem. I'm very bad at subtlety. As for the more drawing and less talk, well. The talk is a byproduct of discoveries made during drawing. If I discover something, I can't help but talk about it.. Come to think of it, how come there aren't more people posting examples of their work?