Redo not always working

[momo]

Just reading through this discussion I was wondering:

Why not just simply save a different version everytime? Then you can easily go back?

Ok maybe it might take a bit more space on the hard disk. Another alternative could be to simply duplicated the layer and name it version 1 or version 2 and turn the visibility on and off to preview the desired work?

But I think the best solution for david would be to use the "spare" function edit->spare->copy to spare that way you can do everything you want to timing and then re use a drawing that you prefered.

Mads Juul wrote:
1) draw 1 stokes on current image
2) undo 1 time (the strokes disappear)
3) change current frame
4) Now You cant Redo the stroke .

This didnt work for me, I am not sure there is really a bug.

I think it wouldn't be possible to implement this redo/undo for each frame. Simply because then you cannot differenciate if you want a redo/undo on the frame or on the "general" usage...say if I want to redo/undo the change in the timing....or the deleted layers

[David_Fine]

The above ideas about undo and redo stacks are interesting, but do not seem to apply to my situation and I see this as a bug. Here's why: I just tested by opening a new blank project. Drew three squiggles on one single instance which is held for 10 frames. Hit Undo, so I go back to two squiggles. Hit redo. Back to three. So far so good. Hit undo, back to two squiggles. Now I hit the play button. I just played my 10 frame hold on my two squiggles and now I want to hit Redo to go back to three squiggles. Nothing happens. Just hitting play deleted the opportunity to redo. Nothing else done at all. Hitting play should not interrupt or change what has done in terms of Undo and Redo, but it does, so I see this as a bug which will hopefully be addressed.

[Svengali]

It's not a bug. This is how it is supposed to work. When you hit PLAY, you are changing the undo stack history at whatever point it is currently set, because you are moving the cursor so that it ends up on a different frame. Having moved the cursor to a different frame, TVPaint assumes that you are going to do something on this new frame and adds a new layer to the stack (Change current image) where additional strokes or other operations can then be captured (after throwing away all the other redo operations above the current point in the stack).

The nature of the undo stack is that it is single dimensional and temporally ordered. Making any operational change (applying a new stroke, moving to a new frame, moving to a new layer, or any other undo-able operation) extends the stack upward OR clears all of the operations beyond the current place in the stack and starts extending upward building new history.

It is worthwhile moving the history panel over the frame so you can watch how it builds itself... and rebuilds itself as you experiment with different operations.

Move Down and Up the stack (Undo/Redo) to see how the stack collapses clusters of similar strokes and other repeated operations, then how it expands each repeated cluster as needed when moving back down through the history.

See how it truncates itself as it begins adding new history from its current point in the stack when NEW operations are performed.

Play vs Flip
Unlike when you press the PLAY button, clicking on the FLIP button doesn't finish with your cursor on a different frame, it returns the cursor to the original frame where you can resume moving forward or backward on the original undo stack to an earlier or later state of the drawing on the original frame. Be aware though that if you are midway in the undo stack, all OLD strokes after that point will be lost as those new strokes are added.

Auto Break Option
Another thing you might experiment with... In the Image menu/instances, uncheck the setting for Auto Break Instance. By turning this off any drawing changes to an exposure frame will be applied to its original instance.

I wonder if a solution to the expectations you voice here might not be found through some new clip-script or clip-menu-options with which to save (and reload) versions of the current clip allowing you to safely test various alternatives?

Sven

[Paul Fierlinger]

This is an excellent and helpful tutorial, Sven. I've always kept my History Panel right above the drawing window, but after reading your explanation of how to interpret these items, I expanded the list to as tall a height as possible and only this way am I able to see for the first time the pattern of strokes and "Change current image" items. There are plus symbols for every "stroke Pen Brush" too, and when expanded it shows how many more strokes really are listed. Not just that, but frame changes are NOT listed, yet they can be spotted as new paragraphs. Are these spots indicating where the string of strokes become interrupted, thus unrecoverable stepping backwards?

But suppose they wouldn't be unrecoverable? Would that mean that the list would have to start moving sideways? And even if it were to happen, what would be wrong with that except for creating a wide sheet of up and sideways lists of strokes? My guess is that here is where the cache would quickly become too heavy to be continuously collected in any practical manner and something would have to collapse -- is this the case?

[Svengali]

Paul,
I'd rather step aside and ask the programmers to comment (with much more authority than I can muster) about the intricacies of the Undo/Redo Stack in TVPaint.

For me, though, the simplicity of the Undo Stack's functionality is also its strength. Once understood, Undo operations become integral to how you work. Being able to Undo and Redo is one of the most powerful things about working digitally... a fundamental difference that has forever changed the creative process.

Sven

[Paul Fierlinger]

Being able to Undo and Redo is one of the most powerful things about working digitally... a fundamental difference that has forever changed the creative process.

So true. This is what makes us all grow exponentially in drawing dexterity. By the same token, the often obsessive pursuit of automation of anything in sight can do the opposite.

[David_Fine]

So I can see that this is not a bug, but I would consider it a bizarre design flaw because no other app I know works this way with it's history stack. It's like if you were working on an image in Photoshop up close, zoomed back to see the whole picture and then your Undo/Redo was sacrificed because of looking at it that way. An even more apt comparison is in Final Cut Pro where the Undo/Redo is not impacted by moving along the timeline or playing a sequence. Playing and moving the playhead is not recorded as a thing that can be undone, but in TVPaint, it is. That's the part that makes no sense to me. A manipulation or drawing or erasing should be in the stack. Playing a sequence and doing nothing else, should not. So I think I will put this down as a suggestion to fix. Thanks for all your thoughts on this. At least I now fully understand why this is happening.

[Svengali]

David,
Try this work around: In the keyboard shortcuts, choose an unused key and assign Preview:Flip Book to it. Use this key instead of the PLAY option and you should find that the Undo/Redo stack is unaffected. Holding the key down will make it loop. Set the Flip Book length in the Preview Settings Panel.

By default, the Flip Book command always returns the frame cursor to the same frame it started on when the Preview started, so there is no Change Current Image operation added to the stack.

Sven

[ZigOtto]

David,
Try this work around: In the keyboard shortcuts, choose an unused key and assign Preview:Flip Book to it. Use this key instead of the PLAY option and you should find that the Undo/Redo stack is unaffected. Holding the key down will make it loop. Set the Flip Book length in the Preview Settings Panel.

By default, the Flip Book command always returns the frame cursor to the same frame it started on when the Preview started, so there is no Change Current Image operation added to the stack.

Sven

that's why I'm not personnaly affected by this undo/redo issue,
cause I always use my "FlipBook-Play" shortcut to check my drawing changes in my workflow,
I "play" the full preview only in the final to check (and tweak) the timing (instance's exposure) in real time.

[David_Fine]

Flip book is handy, but often I have a unique section of animation I want to watch, not just flipping a few frames. I mark the in and out points to isolate that area. That's pretty quick to do, but counting the frames and setting the flip book to flip those frames is much less convenient, so doesn't really work for me. Interesting all the different working methods.

[David_Fine]

Yes, +1 to changing the Undo/Redo stack to not include movements on the timeline or moving from one layer to the other. It should only record manipulations, deletions, timing changes, drawing changes, but not simply looking at the material. No other application works that way. Not Final Cut Pro, or Pro Tools, or Photoshop or Word, etc... TVPaint is the only app I have ever come across that records simply viewing or moving the cursor as an item to Undo or Redo.

[Mads Juul]

+1

[schwarzgrau]

+1

[momo]

Sorry to ask but I dont really understand why ask for change when you can simply use the already existing spare function which would does the exactly what would be needed in this situation. Spare is arguably even better since you can store a drawing for much longer...all this for the sake of making it the same as all the other software...I am not convinced.

[Paul Fierlinger]

Spare will take only single images, not an entire anim layer.