Non destructive alpha support

[Kwadrope]

agreed

nondestructive effects and workflow would be so handy

[slowtiger]

Sorry, I don't get that.

If I need to work with several versions of a mask, I have to multiply alpha channels even in Photoshop. There's nothing "non-destructive" in that PS workflow. Layers in TVP serve pretty well as masks.

TVP is an animation program, and IMO it should concentrate on that. If I work at just a still image and need to play around with masks and transfer modes and opacities, I'd use PS anyway.

"Non-destructive" always means "slower response" and "bigger files". I pretty much can live with not being able to go back to Adam & Eve in my workflow, but I can't live with a loss of speed.

[Kwadrope]

Sorry, I don't get that.

If I need to work with several versions of a mask, I have to multiply alpha channels even in Photoshop. There's nothing "non-destructive" in that PS workflow. Layers in TVP serve pretty well as masks.

TVP is an animation program, and IMO it should concentrate on that. If I work at just a still image and need to play around with masks and transfer modes and opacities, I'd use PS anyway.

"Non-destructive" always means "slower response" and "bigger files". I pretty much can live with not being able to go back to Adam & Eve in my workflow, but I can't live with a loss of speed.

and this I also kind of agree with ^^

I guess this is still too early for a bitmap program. Toonboom (vector) shows that even animating programs can make use of nondestructive effects, so I wouldn't dismiss that because you wouldn't need that in animation,ever. Of course it would be useless to want to work on a single image ,but say you want some kind or blur effect ,you make the effect,you continue working and then you might think it would've been better to put that blur a bit later or a bit earlier,in time. You can't change that again,ever. And there lies the power of nondestructive effects. And those effects can be turned off when you don't need them yet, which saves on render time. But I guess,you could kind of do that and then save those effects in the bin,so that might be a little workaround.

but it's too early for tvpaint.Tvpaint already gets quite slow when using effects (still great program though!)
first there should be a performance increase,so that you can more easily tinker around with settings without having to wait too long.

I'd settle for a more simple use of effects
manipulating effects right now can be a hassle and not user friendly. More manipulators would be handy.

and make the FX stack dockable,I always have to move it because it hovers in my way.

again Just stating my opinion and findings,not putting it here as absolute fact or MUST

[Elodie]

Mjloskin, you disinterred a very old topic ^^"

Photoshop is a bitmap software but manages its masks as vectorial elements. That's not the case of TVPaint, which is 100% bitmap.
More over, Photoshop is basically a software for retouching pictures and photographs ("Photo" "Shop"), not for painting neither animating. Even if you can do so, it's not it's primary role. TVPaint is a drawing, painting and animating software. It's not a basically a compositing or retouching software.

By the way, if you don't want to destroy the original layers, why don't you use the effect "Image source", before using another effect ?

[malcooning]

Old thread, but still pressing.

Photoshop is a bitmap software but manages its masks as vectorial elements.

Not true. Photoshop uses 2 types of masks - bitmap and vector. Initially there was only bitmap masks, but since CS1 there's also the vector mask.
The bitmap masks assumes black&white values, and sends them to the alpha channel. In this respect, leaving vector masks aside, photoshop is 100% bitmap.

More over, Photoshop is basically a software for retouching pictures and photographs ("Photo" "Shop"), not for painting neither animating. Even if you can do so, it's not it's primary role. TVPaint is a drawing, painting and animating software. It's not a basically a compositing or retouching software.

I think that when people bring features that exist and work well in Photoshop it's not because they are comparing between the programs. Each program its own virtues. But it is also a good practice to notice what can be learned from the other platform and what can be implemented in this platform to good use.

I'm very much supporting the addition of masks in TVP, and have been requesting it for some long time. I think the way that photoshop works with masks and alpha channels is secondary to none. It allows for so much breathing room. It's practically a non-destructive heaven. In this respect, in TVP there's a need for MORE breathing room. Quite some more. Currently you can use an external layer as your alpha source, but this has big limitations:

1. TVP requires an additional layer as stencil source (whereas in photoshop the mask is embedded - it's part of the layer). This complicates and thickens the project.
2. TVP uses the alpha values of the stencil source, whereas in photoshop the alpha source is decided by black and white values (allows for much more accuracy in your mask, because black and white is easy to paint, compared to painting transparencies.)
3. in TVP you can add stencils of several layers. But Stencils INVERTED do not add up - you're left with the allowance of only a single inverted stencil layer.
4. in Photoshop you can easily make selections from masks, because of the B&W values. In TVP you can't, because it's in alpha values.

There are many more advantages to masks, but there's no need to bring them up here.
And since both programs do their magic in bitmap, I can't see why masks can't be implemented in TVP.
In fact, every decent image manipulation, CG graphics, video editing and compositng software in the market today allows for manipulation of it's alpha channel via a separate Black & White image. there should always be an access to your alpha channel via such image. But TVP is lacking there.

Lastly, both programs do more than what they initially intended for. Photoshop is a pretty good drawing program, and TVP has compositing and retouching capabilities. and more to the point, in my process of drawing, painting and animating in TVP I very much would love to have masks. Often I had to find workarounds, which could have been redundant if masks were in use. TVP brought new ways of animating and drawing. why stop it's prosperity with statements when you can actually improve it further and make it shine by adding masks.

[Fabrice]

why stop it's prosperity

We are not stopping anything ... Everything comes on it's time.