Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

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OwenWelsh
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by OwenWelsh »

schwarzgrau wrote:The good thing about something like the 3D guides you talking about is that they are absolutely accurate, but that's also their downside. For example I noticed if I use TVPaints Out-Of-Pegs function too much my animations get absolutely mechanical. I don't want to say you need to overthink every inbetween, but if you got a perfect guide for every frame you will propably stop thinking and loose the looseness of it.
It's like comparing pose-to-pose animation with straight-forward animation. Pose-to-pose is great for staging a shot and keeping the characters constant etc. but you're loosing the life of it really fast.
That's the reason why a film like paperman doesn't work for me (apart from the story). It misses the tiny bit of imperfection even the last hand-drawn Disney features had.
Yes that is a risk when relying on reference. The similar thing happens when you rely too much on rotoscoping for your animation. For the 3D reference I personally would only pick a few landmarks on the 3d reference to keep the drawing looking solid and the rest I would throw away so that I can squash and stretch and distort. The 3D reference is not an end in itself, merely a tool. This requires good judgement and discretion on the artist, but I think, at least for me, would be extremely helpful tool.

I understand that the purists don't like this idea and that's fine, but I think there are many who would.
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schwarzgrau
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by schwarzgrau »

Yupp, I completely agree with you. Another good example for using 3D-references is this piece from studio AKA, which was already mentioned here in the forum.
Like in the Guarnido video they used 3D stand ins as refernce for complex camera-movements, but they also used CG-feed, cause the drawn feed always slipped on the ground.
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Fabrice
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by Fabrice »

if I'm not yet convinced about the result of automated inbetweening for very complex and artistic 2D movements (at some point, nothing can replace the artistic human brain and hand), I think a 3D guide could be a useful addition.
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OwenWelsh
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by OwenWelsh »

schwarzgrau wrote:Yupp, I completely agree with you. Another good example for using 3D-references is this piece from studio AKA, which was already mentioned here in the forum.
Like in the Guarnido video they used 3D stand ins as refernce for complex camera-movements, but they also used CG-feed, cause the drawn feed always slipped on the ground.
Wow, amazing animation from Studio AKA. Thanks for sharing this. Yes I agree for 3D camera moves, 3d reference is imperative. At that point though you would need to construct the whole set and characters in a 3D application and then draw over the top.

I've had cases where I'm animating an acting scene. The character is usually pretty close to the screen. The character might get closer to the camera while his head is doing all sort of movement. The combination of volume change and perspective slows down the production alot. Also if the character has any sort of solid object on his head like antlers or a complex hat, this can be troublesome and 3D can help on that. Also because much of the acting requires subtle changes in the perspective, I feel 3D ref can aid here as well as subtle animation is very very difficult. Fast action is very easy and reference is usually never needed because you can get away with almost anything and the eye will forgive it.

So what I end up doing in these cases is creating a rough 3d model by hand, importing my exported TVPaint animation into an image plane in Maya, then match move the 3D model to the extremes in my drawing by hand keyframing. I would then export that 3D animation back to tvpaint as ref. This process of course takes a bit of time and I was wondering if TVPaint could somehow offer tools to make it quicker to use 3D ref.
OwenWelsh
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by OwenWelsh »

Fabrice wrote:if I'm not yet convinced about the result of automated inbetweening for very complex and artistic 2D movements (at some point, nothing can replace the artistic human brain and hand), I think a 3D guide could be a useful addition.
I agree I dont think the use of automated inbetweens are useful for fast movement scenes where shapes are changing a lot. However for subtle animation where you just need a few extra frames of moving holds (where the drawing barely changes) this could really help. The inbetween would have to simulate a stroke similar to the ones its inbetweening though so it doesn't look mechanical.


Yes for 3D guides I agree that's probably even more useful that automated inbetweens.
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schwarzgrau
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by schwarzgrau »

I guess every solution possible would require TVPaint to handle 3D models, their rotation, different cameras (with all different sensor sizes, lenses etc.). So much stuff, which wouldn't be worth the effort.
Photoshop integrated 3D models and it's so clumsy and impractical that I would always open up blender, even for the simplest stuff.
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momo
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by momo »

schwarzgrau wrote: So much stuff, which wouldn't be worth the effort.
Photoshop integrated 3D models and it's so clumsy and impractical that I would always open up blender, even for the simplest stuff.
+1
It is a complete waste of the programmer's time considering the amount and work and complexity of implementing this. With this work flow a 3D model and a rough 3D camera move are needed, wether it is made in TVpaint or another software it doesn't make a big time saving difference. Importing or exporting frames are quick things do to espcially considering it will only be needed once per sequence.
OwenWelsh wrote:So what I end up doing in these cases is creating a rough 3d model by hand, importing my exported TVPaint animation into an image plane in Maya, then match move the 3D model to the extremes in my drawing by hand keyframing. I would then export that 3D animation back to tvpaint as ref. This process of course takes a bit of time and I was wondering if TVPaint could somehow offer tools to make it quicker to use 3D ref.
Why not simply draw your poses on your sketchbook then poses out in maya with the 3D camera move, import the frames into tvp and your are done. That would take you less time and provide the same result.
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neonnoodle
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by neonnoodle »

If you're looking for good ways to integrate 3D with 2D, look into the newest version of Blender. The Grease Pencil system for that program has been expanded and improved greatly, and allows some really interesting interplay between hand drawing and 3D elements. For example, you can draw frame-by-frame if you want, but you can also do interesting things like draw simple 3D models with the pencil tool (almost as if you were making a wire sculpture).

One of the ways of using this is that you can quickly sketch out 3D scenery for a storyboard (like a room with a table and chairs), and then compose the shot using the camera tool. Here's an example:
http://gooseberry.blender.org/blender-2 ... -workflow/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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schwarzgrau
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by schwarzgrau »

Wow, that's exactly what I tried to achieve with RhondaForever a few month ago.

[qt]960,540,http://schwarzgrau.com/zeug/FTV_balkon_web.mov[/qt]

But in my workflow I used RhondaForever (which is really tedious, cause the camera navigation isn't that great) exported it as DXF and imported it in blender, to convert it to a mesh and imported the mesh into After Effects.
I thought there must be a way in blender to draw in 3D space and experimented with the grease-pencil, but I guess the grease-pencil wasn't capabable of this stuff at this time.
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OwenWelsh
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by OwenWelsh »

Great suggestions on blender.

I agree that for 3d camera moves there's no point in TVPaint to develop something like that. However perhaps for bringing in a single 3D object that you can scale and rotate, that could be quite useful for 3d reference. Alot of users and voiced opinions that bringing 3d into TVPaint would slow the program down and that is a valid point. I wouldn't want the 3d in TVPaint if it slowed it down to that of Photoshop's integration, however if it could remain very simple and speedy I would find it a great tool.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and ideas.
OwenWelsh
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by OwenWelsh »

schwarzgrau, RhondaForever looks fascinating! I can't see the video you posted in your post. It says plugin not supported? I'd love to see what you're talking about. Do you perhaps have the link to it? Thanks.
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schwarzgrau
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by schwarzgrau »

Yeah unfortunately they stopped developing it. I talked to the main developer and asked for help, he said maybe they will continue the work on it, but I guess they wont.

Maybe you got no Quicktime-plugin? http://schwarzgrau.com/zeug/FTV_balkon_web.mov
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OwenWelsh
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by OwenWelsh »

schwarzgrau wrote:Yeah unfortunately they stopped developing it. I talked to the main developer and asked for help, he said maybe they will continue the work on it, but I guess they wont.

Maybe you got no Quicktime-plugin? http://schwarzgrau.com/zeug/FTV_balkon_web.mov
Thanks for the link. Wow thats amazing. This can be achieved in blender now with grease pencil? I have chrome browser, it says my quicktime is up to date... I'll check it out.
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schwarzgrau
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by schwarzgrau »

Yeah I think so. The idea is the same I guess: drawing something in three dimensions. And the video Zoe posted looks a lot like the technique I used.
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Fabrice
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Re: Inbetween automation solutions and ideas

Post by Fabrice »

OwenWelsh wrote:Great suggestions on blender.

I agree that for 3d camera moves there's no point in TVPaint to develop something like that. However perhaps for bringing in a single 3D object that you can scale and rotate, that could be quite useful for 3d reference. Alot of users and voiced opinions that bringing 3d into TVPaint would slow the program down and that is a valid point. I wouldn't want the 3d in TVPaint if it slowed it down to that of Photoshop's integration, however if it could remain very simple and speedy I would find it a great tool.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and ideas.
bringing 3D as a layer with 3D movements, etc ... seems to me very complicated and even if created correctly, might indeed slowdown TVPaint.
but bringing 3D (.obj file) as a guide in the new guide system is maybe more easy. Will see in the future.
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