Further out-of-pegs suggestion

[furushil]

I have read this thread: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7271&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and I watched this video: http://www.vimeo.com/55219207" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am also using the Out of Pegs feature a lot and was taught to do it on paper like in the video of Don Perro (also with registration crosses).

I have a further suggestion.
Most of the time you have drawing 1 and drawing 3 and you create an inbetween on drawing 2
Just like in the video of Don Perro, you shift and rotate drawing 3 over drawing 1 so that they "line up". Then you create the inbetween and re-register the drawings.
On paper the re-regestration would happen automatically because of the punched holes.
Wouldn’t it be nice if TVPaint also could re-register the drawings automatically?

Here is one simple example:

drawing 1 parameters were not shifted
drawing 3 parameters were shifted to x: +10 ; y: +20; angle -30°

After creating the in-between, you would have to shift drawing 3 back to 0 (applying x:-10; y:-20; angle +30°) by using the „reset“ option. You would also have to shift the created inbetween to x:-5; y:-10 angle: +15° (half way)
(For simplification, I am talking about mechanical inbetweens and not taking arcs into consideration here.)

I know the example seems ridiculous but I am over simplifying things.

Another example:

drawing 1 shifted to x:+20 ; y:+30 angle: +20°
drawing 3 shifted to x:+10 ; y:+10 angle: +10°
to reset you have to shift drawing 1 and 2 by applying the negative parameters
and you have to shift the inbetween half way back by applying x:-15 ; y-20 ; angle:-15° (the negative sum of the parameters of drawing 1 and 2)

My suggestion would be to have an additional option that not only resets the shifted out-of-pegs drawing but also the inbetween half way.

reset button.jpg (49.06 KiB) Viewed 19290 times

The button could also be somewhere else because I read that some people don't like the new reset menu.

Would anybody else find this useful?

[NathanOtano]

This feature for the current frame that you inbetween going half way of the transformations of the frame before and the frame after can be nice, i'm just thinking that, really often, an inbetween is not just in the middle. So this would be usefull if you can choose a % of the position, to have it on a 1/3 or a 1/4. But it becomes too complicated.
For your case i think i'll prefer to draw the rough inbetween on his final position just to place it on the good spacing (like in the video) then i'll move the frame before and after on it to animate the movement of the object, now that his path in space is ok. And that way no interpolation on the pixels of your inbetween, it stays clean on his place : if you draw and then move it, you may lose informations i think (or you're in a vectorial program like illustrator...).

Also, as the video explains it really well, to be able to flip with the out of peg (especialy when the lightable is off) will be really nice (i remember a plugin in the forum, here http://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php? ... out+of+peg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, with a greatdiscussion about all i'm saying on this message... so it's just like a big +1, natively it would be nice). And (as i said here : http://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8182" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), a button to activate/desactivate the out of peg, like the button for the lightable, will be really nice to compare the final animation and the out of pegged animation.
But there is the flipbook:out of peg shortcut that is a good solution.

And another thing, i don't know how everybody finds it usefull to remember the out of peg when you go to the next instance. When the next drawing is out of pegged instead of the first one. For me i just don't use it at all, and i think it would be really more usefull to have it staying on the moved frames, so we can flip, with an on/off button + a reset button. Something liek a non destructive move for flipping, like paper. But i think that it's really different and harder to do than the actual lightable behaviour. Also i read the idea of a manual "next out of peg drawing/previous out of peg drawing" command, it seems really nice to me.

[furushil]

Also, as the video explains it really well, to be able to flip with the out of peg (especialy when the lightable is off) will be really nice (i remember a plugin in the forum, here viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7271&hilit=flipping+out+of+peg, with a greatdiscussion about all i'm saying on this message... so it's just like a big +1, natively it would be nice). And (as i said here : viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8182), a button to activate/desactivate the out of peg, like the button for the lightable, will be really nice to compare the final animation and the out of pegged animation.
But there is the flipbook:out of peg shortcut that is a good solution.

And another thing, i don't know how everybody finds it usefull to remember the out of peg when you go to the next instance. When the next drawing is out of pegged instead of the first one. For me i just don't use it at all, and i think it would be really more usefull to have it staying on the moved frames, so we can flip, with an on/off button + a reset button. Something liek a non destructive move for flipping, like paper. But i think that it's really different and harder to do than the actual lightable behaviour. Also i read the idea of a manual "next out of peg drawing/previous out of peg drawing" command, it seems really nice to me.

I am aware of the other topics and your topic that you created, please, let 's keep them separate

[ZigOtto]

...
Wouldn’t it be nice if TVPaint also could re-register the drawings automatically?

...
(For simplification, I am talking about mechanical inbetweens and not taking arcs into consideration here.)

...
I know the example seems ridiculous but I am over simplifying things.

...
Would anybody else find this useful?

-1 for me ...

the main reason is that I always avoid doing "mechanical" inbetweens,
I mean there are never "just in the middle", and NEVER on a straight path,
(otherwise, the Keyframer is perfect for doing "mechanical" displacement),

here's my process when it comes to draw inbetweens :
1) if needed, I add an empty instance, then blue-draw very roughly the global mass (volume)
to place it on its right place, with the right spacing, and flip to check how it goes dynamicaly
with the (2 or more) previous and next drawings,
2) once this step "validated", I "out-of-Peg" the previous key and the next key to move
and superimpose them over my indicated inbetween (Key A - Rough-Inbetween - Key B),
then draw/clean and add details to my inbetween, sometimes I reset and "out-of-peg" again
(differently) to animate some secondary parts (a tail, a flamed hair, props or whatever ...)
that's how I used to work when I animated on paper,
and that's how I still work when animating paperlessly.
(sometimes, I draw the inbetween without "out-of-pegging",
and I out-of-peg at last, just to check if there are no "flagrant" inconsistencies .

[furushil]

I mean there are never "just in the middle", and NEVER on a straight path

I know that the inbetween should not be mechanically in the middle. I would see the middle point as the first step. After that you can still shift is slightly so that it is on a arc.
I thought it would be practical when the keys are far apart. With one click the inbetween would jump to the middle and then you could further modify it.
That is what I am doing all the time, shifting it to the "middle" ( not mechanical middle) and further shaping it.
I 'm not saying it should replace the reset button but it could be an additional option.

[ZigOtto]

interesting,
my point is that the less you're animating by using the "out-of-peg" feature,
better your animation will be, my idea is that "out-of-peg" should be used only
to check the accuracy (shape, proportion, ...) after your rough drawing done,
and when something is looking wrong to your eyes by flipping the sequence of drawings,
to help you to identifie what's faulty and to fix it .
imo, the best "tool" to appreciate the relevance, the accuracy and the quality
of your animated drawing is your eyes when you're flipping manually.

my turn to use a simple-silly example to illustrate this :
a sort of "nailed potatoe", two keys, K-1 and K-2,
I want to add an inbetween K-1/K-2,
(no anticipation here, to keep this example as simple as possible) :

inbe2een1.png (22.71 KiB) Viewed 19248 times

as you suggest, I move K-1 over K-2 to draw the inbetween :

inbe2een2.png (15.62 KiB) Viewed 19248 times

inbetween done "out-of-peg" :

inbe2een3.png (15.75 KiB) Viewed 19248 times

then, I reset OoP and position the inbetween to the right place ...

[ZigOtto]

inbe2een4.png (36.29 KiB) Viewed 19248 times

inbe2een5.png (38.24 KiB) Viewed 19248 times

whatever the path (up or down arc), and the spacing I'll choose,
it appears the tail won't suit so far, and I will have to refine (reshape) it,
actually to erase and redraw it completly,

... and further shaping it.

so, why not to (blue-)sketch it directly to the right position + spacing,
and eventually, "further", out-of-peg K-1 +K-2 to check the solidity
of the potatoe's shape ?

inbe2een6.png (21.65 KiB) Viewed 19248 times

to resume my purpose shortly, imo the inbetween drawing is dependent
of the path and the spacing choosen by the animator,
you can't draw it at a virtual (mechanic) "middle", and decide at posteriori
where it should be placed without getting in fine too much approximation,
(and a lot of refining work).

my 2 cts.

[furushil]

Please, don't get me wrong. I am not using the the out-of-pegs feature to do mechanical inbetweens half way all the time. Of course it is better not to use the light table. Like you I am also doing my inbetweens by flipping.

In your potato example I would only concentrate on the potato first and not focusing on the tail. I would lay the keys over each other and sketch in the mass. Then I would bring the keys back to their position and the inbetween to its position, which would be "half way". Now that I have the mass right, I would flip through and draw in the tail.
You see, I am doing it the other way around. First get the mass by shift and trace and then refine by flipping.
By "..further shaping it.." I mean, if you have a face of course you can not just shift and trace lines but you can get the overall mass and proportions first with the out-of-peg feature, then you can flip through to refine it.

If I have two keys of a person, I would only concentrate on the head first.

inbetween00000.jpg (35.45 KiB) Viewed 19240 times

I want the inbetween to be half way. If the keys are far apart you can not instantly say where the middle is.

inbetween00001.jpg (42.95 KiB) Viewed 19240 times

I know you can eyeball it but why not have it jump to the middle and then shift it on the arc. What is the difference if you shift it by hand or the computer does it. You don't have to search for the middle.

Maybe I am doing something wrong

[ZigOtto]

... Maybe I am doing something wrong

no, nothing wrong with your way, just a different approach, that's all,
the mine is'nt worst or better, it's just different, fitting to my workflow
but not necessarily to others,

... and the inbetween to its position, which would be "half way".

...
I want the inbetween to be half way. If the keys are far apart you can not instantly say where the middle is.

... You don't have to search for the middle.

"half way", "half way", "middle", "middle", ... it looks like something obsessing you,
personnally, I don't care to put my inbetween "right in the middle",
and I don't care where the absolute middle is, even if a middle does exist, btw, the middle of what ?
(if you consider the whole moving from the preceding 2 keys to the following 3 others,
where is supposed to be your "middle" ?)

the only thing taking my attention is to have my drawing to the right place for a good looking when flipping,
(= checking dynamicaly), if it's positioned at 2/5 or at 3/5 of the previous/next keys, who care ...?
as long as the result is conform to your prime intention and the anim is running fluidly when you play it ...

in real life, movings are successions of ease-in and ease-out (speed-up and down),
and very rarely interspersed by a linear moving,

of course, it depends also of your animation style, but imo, using (and abusing) of "middles"
when inbetweening tend to make animations looking flat, linear, predictable, ...
definitively not my cup of tea .

Regarding your initial suggestion ( = additional option : Reset and Register), I'm not against,
but if it comes one day, I don't think I will use it so much,
probably other animators will, who knows ...