MJ Out Of Pegs Panel

[Fabrice]

An idea
An instance can have its own name. What if it could have its own out of peg position? Im not talking about the display in the lighttable, but the actual display in the zoom window.something Like when i'm using the transform tool,before I apply and the red square is visible , at this point my drawing is displayed in another position , it is displayed "Out of peg" .
What if we could stick this position and continue with other work like: flipping, preview, enable lighttable, drawing etc.

So with this way of thinking, the "out-of-pegs" feature would be completely independant from the lighttable.
So how to set it properly ? We would need a new interface.

[Mads Juul]

So with this way of thinking, the "out-of-pegs" feature would be completely independent from the light-table.
So how to set it properly ? We would need a new interface.

I guess the functionality would be completely different. It would be the actual Instances being un-pegged. and not the images shown in the Light-table.
I still think the light-table Panel would be a nice interface.
You could still un-peg you drawings

I think we would need a visual indication on an instance that it has been un-pegged. Like an image-mark or the instance name

unpegged_1.JPG (76.67 KiB) Viewed 5080 times

And when flip to the Un-pegged Instance it would still be shown in the un-pegged position so you can drawn on it.
Also notice in the light-table panel. I have indicated that now is the current drawing un-pegged, with the yellow Square with an 0 inside

unpegged_2.JPG (70.16 KiB) Viewed 5080 times

[Fabrice]

Nice to put images on the idea. Not an easy development though.

I'm also afraid we won't be able to draw on the out-of-pegged images easily (or the development will be much longer/complex).

[dperro]

I'm not sure Paul understood my request. I only need three frames to be out of pegs. It's uses are:
To inbetween objects (heads, hands, etc) that are very far apart in the field. You rough out where you think the inbetween should be, then you drag the keys together over the inbetween. The current Out Of Pegs feature does that beautifully. However, it only plays the animation. I need to manually flip the three drawings, back and forth, looking for problems with model and volume consistency. Even turning down the frame rate to 2fps isn't as good.

It's also required for an animator to check their key drawings to make sure they're on model. Flipping to the model sheet is the only way to get the highest (feature) quality for complex characters. I made a couple videos of me working traditionally on paper to show how it was needed. It's almost there. Just need the manual "next out of peg drawing/previous out of peg drawing" command. You would stay in the center frame and "next" means frame 3 and "previous" means frame 1.

I think this is the last feature that would make TVP truly a replacement for paper animation.

[Paul Fierlinger]

So if I understand you correctly, you can already do the same by setting your LightTable's mode to "Image Mark". Then you can mark any image up and down the timeline with a any color mark. Your LT will recognize only the color marked images as the next and previous ones. Would this do it for you?

I think this is the last feature that would make TVP truly a replacement for paper animation.

In my opinion, TVPaint has long surpassed the goal of becoming a paper animation replacement. Just look at the light table and think how many tasks you can achieve with that little panel alone. The real world light table would never even dare dream of most of the digital world's possibilities.

[dperro]

I use image marks but they don't let you temporarily shift the drawings so that they are over each other. Out of pegs allows you to do that but you can only "play" the three drawings and that's doesn't let you really see where the drawings are off model. You need to flip them (just the three drawings) manually, focusing on specific areas of the drawing to look for problems. I can't imagine it's too difficult as it plays them out of pegs...

[Mads Juul]

I only need three frames to be out of pegs. It's uses are:
To inbetween objects (heads, hands, etc) that are very far apart in the field. You rough out where you think the inbetween should be, then you drag the keys together over the inbetween. The current Out Of Pegs feature does that beautifully. However, it only plays the animation. I need to manually flip the three drawings, back and forth, looking for problems with model and volume consistency. Even turning down the frame rate to 2fps isn't as good.

I Agree

It's also required for an animator to check their key drawings to make sure they're on model. Flipping to the model sheet is the only way to get the highest (feature) quality for complex characters. I made a couple videos of me working traditionally on paper to show how it was needed. It's almost there. Just need the manual "next out of peg drawing/previous out of peg drawing" command. You would stay in the center frame and "next" means frame 3 and "previous" means frame 1.

I Agree . Could be nice to see the videos of Out of pegs when using Paper. Could be nice if other paper animators would film and show how this works.

I think this is the last feature that would make TVP truly a replacement for paper animation.

I Agree that Paper surpasses TVpaint when we talk Out of Pegs. And I think "Out of Pegs" is an very important feature when trying to make disney-like animation.

[Mads Juul]

I use image marks but they don't let you temporarily shift the drawings so that they are over each other. Out of pegs allows you to do that but you can only "play" the three drawings and that's doesn't let you really see where the drawings are off model. You need to flip them (just the three drawings) manually, focusing on specific areas of the drawing to look for problems.

I Agree .
By the way dperro Do you work/draw/erase on all three drawings when you have "Out of Pegs"?

[Mads Juul]

I just got an idea to another approach to creating flipping out of peg. I have made a proof of concept and put it in the MJ Out of Pegs Panel

manuelFlip.JPG (84.16 KiB) Viewed 5058 times

Notes
1) Only works with 3 drawing current-previous-next
2) Always press the "Start" before manuel flipping the out of pegs drawings
3) Always press "End" bottom when finished with Manuel Flipping
4) You can only draw on the current image(Nitice I lock current layer with the script when I show one of the Lighttable drawings)

I dont know if this is usefull at all. just got the idea and wanted to share it

[Mads Juul]

But my feeling is, that to make the Out of Peg feature in TVPaint superior to Paper, We need to be able to work on all unpegged drawings.

[Fabrice]

I use image marks but they don't let you temporarily shift the drawings so that they are over each other. Out of pegs allows you to do that but you can only "play" the three drawings and that's doesn't let you really see where the drawings are off model. You need to flip them (just the three drawings) manually, focusing on specific areas of the drawing to look for problems. I can't imagine it's too difficult as it plays them out of pegs...

As I tried to explain, it requires 2 different focus (current frame + current frame when OOP activated in the LT), which is not easy to implement (but not impossible).

But my feeling is, that to make the Out of Peg feature in TVPaint superior to Paper, We need to be able to work on all unpegged drawings.

Yep, but we need to do some changes in the engine to do so.
We will study the question as soon as someone is free in the dev team.
Any bad move would make the software unusable.

[D.T. Nethery]

I'm not sure Paul understood my request. I only need three frames to be out of pegs. It's uses are:
To inbetween objects (heads, hands, etc) that are very far apart in the field. You rough out where you think the inbetween should be, then you drag the keys together over the inbetween. The current Out Of Pegs feature does that beautifully. However, it only plays the animation. I need to manually flip the three drawings, back and forth, looking for problems with model and volume consistency. Even turning down the frame rate to 2fps isn't as good.

It's also required for an animator to check their key drawings to make sure they're on model. Flipping to the model sheet is the only way to get the highest (feature) quality for complex characters. I made a couple videos of me working traditionally on paper to show how it was needed. It's almost there. Just need the manual "next out of peg drawing/previous out of peg drawing" command. You would stay in the center frame and "next" means frame 3 and "previous" means frame 1.

I think this is the last feature that would make TVP truly a replacement for paper animation.

YES.. Everything mentioned in this thread previously by Mads and by Don is what concerns many traditional pencil & paper animators wanting to switch over to paperless using TVPaint. Just recently I have had this conversation with two former Disney animators who are now teaching at schools with TVPaint and trying to show their students how to do precise inbetweening with TVPaint. The general consensus is that the current Out of Pegs function is "ok" to a certain point , but would be more useful if it was as Mads and Don are describing. This is not to take away from what the development team has given us already , this is not a complaint about the current Out of Pegs function, but a request to push it further if possible.

Mads Out of Pegs custom panel is a good start.

Notes
1) Only works with 3 drawing current-previous-next
2) Always press the "Start" before manual flipping the out of pegs drawings
3) Always press "End" bottom when finished with Manual Flipping
4) You can only draw on the current image (Notice I lock current layer with

I don't see it as a big problem if it only works with 3 drawings : current , previous, next , since that is how traditional inbetweening on paper is done , although some artists prefer to have more than 3 drawings in the stack and be able to flip around to previous and following drawings to check the current (top) inbetween drawing. But practically speaking, if you are inbetweening with the Light Table on then you really only need to to have Current , Previous, Next be active out of pegs.

"4) You can only draw on the current image" ... again to me that is not a big problem. That is the way it would be on paper. If you are drawing an inbetween you must assume that the two drawings being inbetweened are correct , so why would you need to draw on either the previous or next drawings which you are currently inbetweening ? If you find something was out of place with one of the drawings being inbetweened then you would have to fix that first ( "on pegs") and then go back to continue to draw the inbetween ("off pegs") , so to me not being able to draw on the previous or next while it is in the off pegs position is not a big deal, but if it were possible to do that then so much the better.



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[D.T. Nethery]

Don Perro -

There seems to be a similar discussion happening in the Japanese language forum :

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=5927#p52710" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


As much as I can gather the user Harada is as asking for shift-and-trace (off pegs) with flipping , as illustrated by this demonstration of the traditional process :

[Fabrice]

She/he wanted to move the current frame out of the pegs.

But as it could have been confusing with the transform tool, we added the ability to link all the out-of-pegged images. It was a simpler solution.

So yes, quite related to the current topic, but explained from the Japanese point of view.

[Paul Fierlinger]

My God! Shouldn't an animator have more drawing skills than what is shown here?! I couldn't decide if this is meant to be parody or a serious demo.