X sheet overhaul

[Kwadrope]

I'm working on a an animation right now and I wanted to reuse some of my footage in my timing. So this should mean x-sheets right?
Except that I find them so horrible to work with I opted to copy paste by hand.

If a feature is that annoying there is something wrong (possibly something wrong with me but that's debatable ^^)

So I propose to simplify ,maybe even eliminate the xsheet system.



At it's core,what is the xsheet system?
A different way to represent the timeline (vertically)

and that's really it,really.


What does it do in mypaint? it makes it easier to reuse footage.
But why couldn't I use this in timeline mode? what possible reason could there be to make an extra layer system (xsheet) that clutters my timeline even more,and makes handling them quite difficult?



So what do we really need?
-an easy way to link and thus re-use frames/exposures (linked frames)
-easy frame editing tools
-a way to unlink linked frames if you wish to break the links.


Linked frames should be as easy adding a new framecopy but with a special status. (some applications solve this by adding a "special paste" with various settings in a dialog)
A different Icon,A different color,a different way of representing it on the screen,in the timeline. How this could be done is debatable.
But whatever way, you should be able to "link paste" an existing exposure,so that when you change something in one exposure ,it also changes in any linked one (or more),where ever it would be in the timeline/xsheet.

This could be done by just reusing the frame ID,and really you are copy pasting the frame ID,not an actual image,I don't really know,but some programs do this succesfully.


Linking frames should also work for selection of multiple instances (and their exposures)
Unlinking should be as easy as rightclicking,or selecting and pressing a shortcut.


This way of workflow would imo be preferential to the xsheet. Bring this functionality to the timeline,and build the timeline and the xsheet to be as easily manipulatable as the other.
Xsheets should still use names for frames,but it would be in effect just be a different skin,representation of the timeline. With a more logical renaming it could become a very powerful tool.


Right now it just is an annoyance (imo)




I know I might be oversimplifying issues,and solutions. I just put this here to possible start a conversation about how to handle things differently,and to try and change tvpaint for the better.
Input welcome.

[ematecki]

The big problem with what you propose is that it is "layer-centric".
What I mean by that is that is works by linking images in layers, but a character is composed of many (sometimes very-many!) layers, and you'll have to link them all !
The xsheet, with all its "limitations", allows you to use a clip as source, clip which can contains as many layers as you need for your character.

We already had a lot of discussion about improving the xsheet here.
But it is really not easy !

[Paul Fierlinger]

Kwadrope, do you know that what you are asking for can be done in TVP 10 Pro's timeline? By changing a frame's name with the Name Changer popup, you can turn it into a linked frame, meaning that wherever you reuse this frame within its layer, a change in the original fame will be reflected in all its instances. I have a handy-dandy script to automate this feature for whoever is interested (made by Madsjull).

[ZigOtto]

... I have a handy-dandy script to automate this feature for whoever is interested (made by Madsjull).

one here ! ... I mean one who's interested,
apparently, I've missed this script ... what's its name ?
and is it a V10 specific feature ?

[kariP]

Paul, I don't seem to get what you just said. I gave a name to an instance, copied it, altered the original, but nothing. No link.
This is new and interesting feature for me, how should this work?

[Paul Fierlinger]

Tracker 07b.tvpx

(152 KiB) Downloaded 1014 times

Using the AUTO button automatically adds an asterix to the frame's name (but you can change the prefix to anything you want -- read comment in button EDIT.

Copy this frame as many times as you wish along the same timeline.

Green Tracker button -- Read Comment in Edit mode. Use left right arrows to view entire line.

Black T button I hardly ever use but read the Comment again.

My work flow:

I have two keys assigned to
numeric pad 8: Instance Panel|ALL:PrevCel
numeric pad 9: Tracker:Next Instance (which is the Green Button)

I draw a bunch of frames and decide that these I will reuse.
I highlight them all and hit the black or green button, either will assign unique names to all of them.
I copy any or all of these frames by highlighting them and while pressing CTRL I copy them further down my timeline's layer.

Now whenever I change something in any of these frames and hit either the Black T button, the Green button, or my advance to next frame numbers pad key "9", the change in my drawing will automatically appear in all its instances.

Sandra colors frames thus:
She has her green button assigned to her "advance to next frame key". BTW using this key with any unmarked frame will not affect its normal function .

Using Instance Panel Button "Ready2Clean" Sandra makes a copy of the layer she will be coloring. This creates a copy of the layer under the line layer and empties all the line drawings in the process, while the names of the frames remain.

So as she colors, starting from the first frame and then advancing to the next frame using her keyboard key (or you can use the Green button) she will be copying her colors automatically on all the instances I had made of that particular frame. Once she comes up to such an instances, it will already be colored.

Tis might sound complicated but after you have tested this once, you will find it very easy to use. This system BTW is great for large studio work as well because opaquers don't have to learn anything special to have it work for them automatically -- as long as their advance to next frame key is assigned with the Green Button.

[Kwadrope]

mmmyes


so it's there,perhaps,but hardly optimised.Maybe some effort should go to that. (as TVP future features are secret I cannot tell wether or not you are already doing this)


So I'd still advocate what I described in my opening post, also have it work without an addon/script,because those don't reach the majority of the users.
it should work with shortcuts,context menu entries and whatnot.

The big problem with what you propose is that it is "layer-centric".
What I mean by that is that is works by linking images in layers, but a character is composed of many (sometimes very-many!) layers, and you'll have to link them all !
The xsheet, with all its "limitations", allows you to use a clip as source, clip which can contains as many layers as you need for your character.

We already had a lot of discussion about improving the xsheet here.
But it is really not easy !

Using clip as a source still seems useful and should not be forgotten by any means. But it should be assimilated and approached differently,perhaps. The TVP xsheet system is archaic and slow.

It should work with for example copying a clip and link-pasting it in the timeline (albeit via an other command or shorcut)
and this should create a special layer that if you double click the layer you go into it's specific timeline. (a bit like a movie clip in flash)

If the timeline would accomodate selecting frames across different layers,this coul also be easily resolved (think of the timeline like a raster,where each frame is a rectangle both vertically and horizontally). This would mean you could select a whole character,lines and color, and copy/link-paste it elswhere in that raster.

Also grouping could be an answer,actual group layers. to manage your characters on a sub-clip level.

Plenty of opportunities should tvpaint choose to grab them.
My main gripe with tvpaint is rarely the painting,but the managing of the scene. Re-using stuff should be easier.



if somebody wants me to illustrate what I mean,I could provide, if words are not enough.