More useful XSheet, improved timeline, drag & drop

[Soom]

1. To save the talk, an example of quite a good XSheet is the good ol' Crater Software CTP (see screenshot below) /http://www.cratersoftware.com/
As a classical animator I prefer to work on a vertical XSheet, than a horizontal timeline, but that's not the main point. The idea in CTP is that the XSheet is very clear, and very functional, yet simple and saves space. It also looks like a classical XSheet. Frames and their repetitive exposures are clearly seen, frames can be numbered, renumbered, renamed. You can drag & drop, add/remove exposures, move frames from place to place, from layer to layer, etc, while utilizing keyboard keys ALT, CTRL and SHIFT for additional functionality.
I think that combining CTP like XSheet with TVPaint timeline functions, would make a great improvement to the way timeline works.

2. The most important function - Drag & Drop frames is really something that TVPaint must add to the timeline functionality. It's so much easier than having to copy/paste each time, especially on Cintiq...
3. The gray area under each layer in TVP in my opinion is completely unnecessary - removing it will save space.
4. Ability to delete an instance, without changing the timing would be very useful. Now if I want to remove an instance I have to drag it's left handle to the right, till it disappears - kinda awkward.
5. When an image is "on hold", I cannot edit it, unless I go to the initial frame on timeline - in my opinion a single "frame on hold" should be always available for editing.
6. A temporary bin for dropping images we might want to use later.

[Fabrice]

Hello Soom,

Thanks for the useful report !

About this :

5. When an image is "on hold", I cannot edit it, unless I go to the initial frame on timeline - in my opinion a single "frame on hold" should be always available for editing.

I'm not sure to understand what you mean.
Maybe the "auto-break instance" option should be switched to do the job, but once again, I'm not sure about about what you are explaining.

[Kwadrope]

I remember CTP

I didn't like it very much mostly (scan and drawing tools were shaky at best,IMO),BUT the xsheet was indeed really handy and very functional,almost equal to the toon boom xsheet (http://www.toonboom.com/img/products/co ... column.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ).

1)yes I would like this.
2)Also great function,also needed for timeline,and you should be able to make selections ACROSS different layers. say you make a square selection in layer 2 and 3 in the middle of 2 animations ,and drag it to the end of the animation on layer 2 and 3 that would be great,but you should even be able to drag it onto layer 1 and 2 ,or 4 and 5 , or 7 and 8 because of a more rasterbased workflow. While you could say this is going too far ,think about it,and I'm sure you could think of numerous ocassions where you might have benifited from that kind of workflow. right know you're constricted to work on layer per layer base. and if you want to move stuff or whole ranges of select ortions of animation you have to go through a long dance of copy paste,make new layer and so on.

3)agreed,in addition to number 2) ,only when the images themselves are selectable.
4)somehow agreed. Possibility for blank frames that don't need to show on the timeline (so you will have several chuncks of animation instead of one continuous line)
5)I also don't really understand what you mean
6)some sort of library...can be an asset,true.


I would also like to add a feature request.
The camera option to move/rotate/resize any or any group of layers in ctp was also quite good,reminiscent of the PEG function in Toon boom .While it had less options then the motion keyframer it was more intuitional to use AND its was somehow nondestructive! You could even assign multiple camera's on the same group of layers en other multiple camera's on other layers.

You could of course commit to reduce clutter ,stress on pc and finalize,but it's something I would ike in TVPaint also. As of now you can't work with different move peg/camera/motio keyframers on different layers at the same time,unless I'm mistaken?

It should be possible to apply effects to different layers at once. while working in the effects stack.
->assign effect 1 (move camera) to layer 1
->assign effect 2 (move camera 2) to layer 2 and 3 and 5
->assign effect 3 (blur) only to 1
->and so on
=>check results-> finalize (commit)

[Soom]

Hi Fabrice
I attached a screenshot to show what I mean.


As you see, here are 2 layers – one is animation layer, and the other – single image. The single image is automatically on hold and the timeline after the initial frame is only an indication that it's on hold. Now I'm on frame 6 doing some animation, and then I decide I need to adjust something on the image layer – I can't. I need to either go back to frame 1 (but then I don't see frame 6 of animation any more), or to extend the "workable" image frame till frame 6, which is an unnecessary work. I think the hold part should be as editable as the image itself.
Actually the "auto–break instance" should do the same job for "animation" layers, with only difference, that it would create a new instance on spot.

[Soom]

Hi Kwadrope
2 - agreed to selections on multiple layers, also something that was possible in CTP
3 - yes, that's what I meant
4 - yes, mainly for the unneeded blank instances, but then again - after I delete a drawing, I'm left with the blank instance, so it's basically the same for any instance
5 - explained in previous reply
As for the camera in CTP - I also think this was a brilliant functionality and was very useful to me – I could pan, rotate, zoom and blur layers independently from each other over time. but since I still don't know how cameras and FX work in TVP , I didn't want to comment about it.
thanks.

[Fabrice]

Hi Fabrice
I attached a screenshot to show what I mean.
As you see, here are 2 layers – one is animation layer, and the other – single image. The single image is automatically on hold and the timeline after the initial frame is only an indication that it's on hold. Now I'm on frame 6 doing some animation, and then I decide I need to adjust something on the image layer – I can't. I need to either go back to frame 1 (but then I don't see frame 6 of animation any more), or to extend the "workable" image frame till frame 6, which is an unnecessary work. I think the hold part should be as editable as the image itself.
Actually the "auto–break instance" should do the same job for "animation" layers, with only difference, that it would create a new instance on spot.

ok, I see now. Thanks for all those feedbacks. It helps to keep improving the software.
Btw, I'm not sure we will keep the image layers in the future versions. Will see.

About the selections on multiple layers, it's has been asked several time in this same forum.
It already has been taken into account. Please be patient, development work in progress ...

4. Ability to delete an instance, without changing the timing would be very useful. Now if I want to remove an instance I have to drag it's left handle to the right, till it disappears - kinda awkward.

Deleting and removing an instance are two different things :
* You can use the main panel erase button to delete the content of an instance (assuming you are on the head cell)
* To remove an instance, you can use the animator panel red button under the instance sub category.

[Soom]

About the selections on multiple layers, it's has been asked several time in this same forum.

Sorry - missed it. Cause I was doing a kinda combined features request, so some got repeated...

Deleting and removing an instance are two different things :
* You can use the main panel erase button to delete the content of an instance (assuming you are on the head cell)
* To remove an instance, you can use the animator panel red button under the instance sub category.

I know these, but both are not what I mean:
* If I delete a content of an instance, I am still left with a blank instance.
* If I use the red button, the instance is deleted, but then all the following timeline shifts back, and destroys my timing. The idea is to remove an instance, without changing the timing at all. Well - it's like in Flash "remove keyframe" if you know what I mean...

[Kwadrope]

Hi Fabrice
I attached a screenshot to show what I mean.


As you see, here are 2 layers – one is animation layer, and the other – single image. The single image is automatically on hold and the timeline after the initial frame is only an indication that it's on hold. Now I'm on frame 6 doing some animation, and then I decide I need to adjust something on the image layer – I can't. I need to either go back to frame 1 (but then I don't see frame 6 of animation any more), or to extend the "workable" image frame till frame 6, which is an unnecessary work. I think the hold part should be as editable as the image itself.
Actually the "auto–break instance" should do the same job for "animation" layers, with only difference, that it would create a new instance on spot.

Oh god yes! This is so needed, and not only for image layers but also for animation layers on repeat,hold and ping pong... I always need to go back to edit something while on another layer something might happen in relation to the repeated animation and I have to shift everything around te be able to work on what I want.

In toon boom and also ctp (I thought,not sure) they solved this by giving ID's to the frames,so that one frame can be used all over the layers and if you change info/frawing in 1 of those frames it changes in them all. This would be quite valuable and better then the xsheet layer in my opinion.

Ofcourse you need to be able to make it a new instance,free of the link to the other drawings if needed.

About the selections on multiple layers, it's has been asked several time in this same forum.
It already has been taken into account. Please be patient, development work in progress ...

Also didn't now this. Great news ,though.

is there a release date yet?

[Paul Fierlinger]

The Instance Panel has a Delete Inst + keep timing. It is also a key command.

[D.T. Nethery]

As a classical animator I prefer to work on a vertical XSheet, than a horizontal timeline, but that's not the main point. The idea in CTP is that the XSheet is very clear, and very functional, yet simple and saves space. It also looks like a classical XSheet. Frames and their repetitive exposures are clearly seen, frames can be numbered, renumbered, renamed. You can drag & drop, add/remove exposures, move frames from place to place, from layer to layer, etc, while utilizing keyboard keys ALT, CTRL and SHIFT for additional functionality.
I think that combining CTP like XSheet with TVPaint timeline functions, would make a great improvement to the way timeline works.

The most important function - Drag & Drop frames is really something that TVPaint must add to the timeline functionality. It's so much easier than having to copy/paste each time, especially on Cintiq...

Let me second or third that request. Drag & Drop frames on the X-sheet in TVP would increase the functionality . Right now , for me, the vertical X-sheet in TVP is almost not worth using. (a better tutorial for TVP Xsheet would be helpful. I've tried using it and every time I get frustrated , so I stop using it; then enough time elapses that I forget how to use it , and then next time I get the urge to give it another try I have to stop to figure out how to use the Xsheet again ) . I haven't used CTP , but the X-sheet in ToonBoom is very functional and even the somewhat more simplified X-sheet in Toki Line Test is very usable. Digicel Flipbook's vertical X-sheet is good , too.

I love TVP and I'm not even considering using any other app (except that I will often use Toki Line Test to shoot quick video pencil tests if I'm working on paper) but I would love TVP even more if the vertical X-sheet was more intuitive and easier to use with features like Drag & Drop frames on the X-sheet.

[Fabrice]

is there a release date yet?

"Development and sales" rule #1 : Never give officially the date of a future release !

[Soom]

The Instance Panel has a Delete Inst + keep timing. It is also a key command.

Paul, sorry, but I don't see it in the instance panel, and I cannot find it even in the list of shortcuts. Are you using some kind of a plugin?

[Paul Fierlinger]

Del-Instance_KLT.tvpx

(86 KiB) Downloaded 1258 times

I believe this is it -- it should have a Skull & crossbones on a yellow field.

[Kwadrope]

is there a release date yet?

"Development and sales" rule #1 : Never give officially the date of a future release !

Unoffically then?

don't be such a tease!


Ah well , as long as the awesome ideas I'm bound to have ( ) in the next days and weeks and months get implemented as well it will be worth the wait ^^
Is there also a beta program for users,incidently? like Corel painter had? Or do you do everything inhouse? Just a question out of curiosity .


I also want to add that there may be some better idea to the use of the sounds and notes slideout. It feels a little off to me,and I always waste time dragging

I'd rather have it pop up and awayagain like the lighttable,possibly dockable to the timeline,or integrated as it is now,but more dependend on the press of a button or the check of an option,then to slide it. every time.
And if they could also both be present a bit better in xsheet (sound check on/off,multiple sound layers...)that would just be gravy.

[slowtiger]

Whatever the developers are planning, please don't release another TVP version too soon (not this year!) because I can't afford it right now ...