The TVP Manual

[Sergeant Karma]

After a couple of months of meaning to try it, a few days ago I finally got around to testing out TVP. I started it up and, with the manual in front of me, was ready to go.

Currently I'm about halfway through, and I have to say: guys, that manual you have there is very, very poor. If there's one thing that's putting me off of buying expensive software, apart from the obvious reasons, it's a shoddy manual. I always tend to think: if the software has been treated with the same care as the manual, it can't be any good. There is a shameful amount of typos, the grammar too often is shaky and unnecessarily confusing, chapters for some reason or other end with one or two blank pages, there are references to older versions of the software, and generally there just doesn't seem to have been put much care into making it. It's messy.

Some things are just sloppy. From 3-3, on naming layers: "You may now enter the name (« Character ») in the text field and then validate it by clicking on OK." You'd think that from then on, that layer would indeed be referred to as "Character". Not so. It suddenly becomes, and stays, "Little man". Not a big thing, but pretty symptomatic -- and a lot of these little things cause one big headache, especially in the more complex chapters. Earlier in the manual, you have to draw a house using straight lines for its roof. Eight pages later, the manual actually explains how to draw straight lines.

Or take this for example:

Let's continue our drawing:
* check that the « brick wall » is the current layer,
* deselect the function Paper on the tool bar,
* select the Rectangle Fill shape in the main menu, then the
Mechanical Pencil icon in the tool panel.
* enable the Erase mode,
* in the option window named Filling shape which appears in
place of the tool panel, set the value in the Smooth numeric
field to 20 pixels.

Why should one select the Mechanical Pencil icon during all this? It doesn't seem to make sense. (Also, the Rectangle Fill shape is called Filled Rectangle, but OK.)

I mean, come on guys. 18 Lessons of that, relatively complex software, it's not good. You expect a certain level of professionalism. I can see the software itself is good, but as a programmer/developer you can't be satisfied with just that fact alone. Like I said before: I'm very interested in the software, but the sloppy manual makes me very wary of buying it.

On a side note: TVP's site makes my browser, Safari, crash way too often. On both my computers.

[idragosani]

To be honest, for a beginner, your best bet is to watch Mark Chong's 10 min video tutorials than trying to go through the manual, so you can see the app in action rather than trying to follow along with "click this" and "set that" in the manual. And turn on "Help->Inline Help->Full", which puts everything you need right in front of you. I rarely have ever used the TVP Manual except to look up something obscure. It's ok as a reference but if you want to really learn how to use the app, watch the videos.

Not sure why the TVP site would actually crash your browser. I am on the site daily in both Firefox and Google Chrome on Linux and Windows with no trouble whatsoever. No embeeded Flash or anything wierd except maybe on the gallery.

[Peter Wassink]

a friend of mine also complained recently that the TVP site did not work good in her safari browser.

But in that same exchange she also mentioned that she liked the manual
I myself never used it, but i think the setup of the manual offers a good structure for new users to help them learn the software.
But some points of the criticism are no doubt valid.
I agree that sloppiness of a manual and/or website reflects badly on the Software.
Do note...If you have any specific questions about the software don't hesitate to put them here on the forum, often they are answered right away... no manual can compete with that

[Paul Fierlinger]

I would like to add to what Peter and others say here that there also isn't anything better than to just experiment with the software -- just fool around with it and ask questions; it'll come to you fast. Particularly since you seem to already know other software of this type so well. If you are interested in TVP because you want to use it for hand drawn films, you will find the software addictive after a few hours of experimenting. You will find your questions often answered here within minutes.

[Svengali]

It's NOT a shoddy manual. At worst, it is a slightly imperfect translation from the original French.

One other thing that might be confusing - the complete manual you are using is probably for the previous full upgrade (9.0) for which an interim Appendix (9.5) has been posted. Have you downloaded that?

If you give TVPaint a chance you'll likely find it to be a best-of-breed package once you see into the programmers' intentions.

Sven

[Mads Juul]

I would probably agree seargent (good?) karma .
But on the other hand something old fashioned with a manual. the online resources and especially a forum like this is much more worth.
I prefer a software which have a forum where my questions is actually aswered probably. When I first encountered TV Paint I used the manual to quickly get an overview of the software. especially to learn the basics of the scripting language. but
I Quickly whent to try out and play arounf with the software and then ask at the forum. as Paul mentioned trying out is the best way to learn a software. But maybe as I suggested with the Geroge Scripting. an online WIKI with user generated content. would maybe be the best manual for a software with such a strong community as TV Paint?
-mads

[slowtiger]

I'm with Karma here. I'm a manual type of guy, that is, I've learned dozens of programs by trying and reading. I have had my share of manuals, good ones, bad ones, excellent ones (like the old Freehand 5) and completely unuseable ones.

The TVP manual gets about 4 to 5 points (of 10). It doesn't just lack proper english, it also suffers from lots of inconsistancies. One of the main parts of learning a new program is to understand the certain lingo that comes with it. It doesn't help when GUI elements are named differently every time they occur. It's also quite maddening when I search for a certain item in the index, only to find that it is named completely and utterly different from what I expected. (This is a point nearly all software shares.)

I think the manual can use a general overhaul. It's not enough to just add new features or expand the number of chapters. I'd like to have a different general structure, and better examples.

I also know how much work this is, since I've alredy designed (and wrote part of) several manuals, from simple brochures to pretty complex stuff like DNA analysis. If there's any interest, I could write an offer to TVP for this ...

[Fabrice]

Dear Sergeant Karma,

Thanks for the feedback about the manual. It was made 3~4 years ago in its first edition, and several people worked on it, as well as different translators during 4 years.
It was firstly written in french for CBPaint (a slightly different product), then translated.

By experience, people from french, germany, USA, japan are not expecting the same thing when speaking about manuals, but we will do our best to improve the manual for the next versions of TVP. (don't forget that TVP is not as big as Adobe, Microsoft, etc ...)

Feel free to ask any question, you are welcome in the forum.

nb : Old users can remember how much it was difficult for TVP on that time, because we had to face a lot of problems. (now finished )

On a side note: TVP's site makes my browser, Safari, crash way too often. On both my computers.

ok, we will work on it asap.

[Sergeant Karma]

Thanks for the replies.

I only bother to criticize the manual because I think the software is really good -- even though it's early stages, I've already discovered all kinds of nifty things and seriously welcome features, and I haven't ever come across software that so closely resembles actual painting -- so it bugs me that the manual isn't representative of that, that instead of drawing you in, it seems to say: "You gotta get past me first, mate." (I've also experienced it the other way around by the way: beautiful, glossy manual, horrible software.)

I think, as slowtiger suggested, a rewrite would be a good thing. A sentence like this one (randomly picked, short example): "The first horizontal bar changes and its left section becomes transparent" would be clearer if it read, for example: "The left section of the first horizontal bar will become transparent." That's a style thing, but it's easier on the eye. Worse are the errors: like the manual tells you the Flip command is "available in the Layer menu", whereas it is in the Image menu, that kind of thing.

The same page (4-10) has: "Increase the image layers to 20 frames and the following timeline will appear [...]", where it would be helpful to mention (/mention again) how you can increase the image layers to 20 frames. The Apple Pro Training Series are good like that, actually. They treat you like a 12-year-old, but damn it makes the learning process go so smooth. (That said, I realize TVP doesn't have the same resources as Apple of course -- and *that* said, that doesn't have to be an excuse because neither do I.)

Again, the criticism doesn't concern the software, which I'm getting happy with, only the manual.

[Paul Fierlinger]

The Apple Pro Training Series are good like that, actually. They treat you like a 12-year-old, but damn it makes the learning process go so smooth.

The Apple Pro Training Series are actually better in that respect. They treat you like a 12-year-old, but damn, it makes the learning process go smoothly.

But who is quibbling? I knew you would enjoy the software as soon as you began to experiment with it. BTW, sometimes upgrades happen within weeks; 3 or 4 updates within weeks, so it would be difficult for a team of 6 French speaking developers to keep the manual updated at the same pace. There is a certain culture around TVPaint developers and users that is very unique and which you won't find elsewhere. Almost everyone here is an artist and artists tend to carry the world like a loose garment.

[slowtiger]

Of course the software is great (yes, it took me some time to realize that), but it still could profit from a better manual. Fortunately more animators use TVP here in my area, so maybe we could set up a user group one day. In the meantime, I hear about the difficulties new users experience, and I know certain points from my own learning where I could've benefited from a better manual a lot.

Nevertheless, overhauling a nearly 500 pages manual is not a small job, and I know how much I would charge for that ... that's quite a lot of licences to sell!