It all started here

[idragosani]

We are so spoiled these days with stuff like Mirage and TV Paint. Here's a pic of what Fleischer studios used in the late 30s (a restored unit):



There's going to be an exhibition in New York celebrating 100 years of the animation industry:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=105385075575

[Paul Fierlinger]

Interesting; three round pegs.

[idragosani]

Yeah, I noticed that, too. There's a lever also that let's you slide the cel out so you don't take the risk of damaging the pegholes and messing up the registration.

[Paul Fierlinger]

That's what the two elongated pegs solved by allowing the holes to be longer than the flat pegs. Another purpose it served was to allow the celluloid sheets expand and contract in humidity without causing creases when flattened by the compendium under the camera. The third thing it allowed was for manufacturers of hole punches sell the punches at $ 1,000 a piece in the 60's! I think that would be like $ 2,500 in today's dollars; the price of 3 TVP 9's just for a hole punch, children ...

[idragosani]

Yeah, they are about $1000 from the animation supply places I've seen online... way more than what I paid for TV paint, that's for sure.

[slowtiger]

A small correction: it was not the elongated pegs but the slighly longer holes (hole longer than peg) in the cels that should prevent them from damage.

As for the grossly overpriced punches, I just checked and nearly fell of my chair:
Commercial Punch $3223.93
Studio Punch $1611.43
I can't believe it. When we bought one in about 1996 it was about 800 DM then, which would roughly translate to 400 € / 500 $ now. Do they treat them as antiquies now?

[Paul Fierlinger]

I stand by my elongated pegs. We are describing the same principal, but you must first have an elongated peg, or flat peg, to keep the two ends from pivoting if you want to have a hole that is longer than the peg. This way you can lift the two ends of the paper without tearing the holes.

[User 767]

http://www.cartooncolour.com/catalog/in ... 3ea414d8e6

I use this punch. ~$700. Studio, table top model. I think it was 'only' about $500 when I bought it (long ago). Of course, who needs a punch anyway? Cels and paper come pre-punched if you want them (at not much higher cost). I think my disc was about about the same price? The last time I was at an art store, I noticed they were selling Acme-Punched Manga paper. I don't know anything about Manga, so I don't understand why you might need registration for it-but I found it interesting.

But, the tools are of little consequence when you consider that Cels cost about $400 for a pack of 1000. (plus the cost of paper, paint, film, processing, etc.). The material cost of my last project to use real cels was about $800 more than if it had been done digitally (25 sec.), But it's not the cost that matters. Cost shouldn't be a deciding factor in everything. (automobile costs are a good example-why purchase a Mercedes, ever?).

Is that restored Feischer workstation yours (or was it on exhibit somewhere)? In the future, will people be lining up to view some old computer workstation with a TVP dongle sticking out of it?

[idragosani]

http://www.cartooncolour.com/catalog/in ... 3ea414d8e6

I use this punch. ~$700. Studio, table top model. I think it was 'only' about $500 when I bought it (long ago). Of course, who needs a punch anyway? Cels and paper come pre-punched if you want them (at not much higher cost). I think my disc was about about the same price? The last time I was at an art store, I noticed they were selling Acme-Punched Manga paper. I don't know anything about Manga, so I don't understand why you might need registration for it-but I found it interesting.

Yes, considering Manga is not an animated art form...

But, the tools are of little consequence when you consider that Cels cost about $400 for a pack of 1000. (plus the cost of paper, paint, film, processing, etc.). The material cost of my last project to use real cels was about $800 more than if it had been done digitally (25 sec.), But it's not the cost that matters. Cost shouldn't be a deciding factor in everything. (automobile costs are a good example-why purchase a Mercedes, ever?).

Unfortunately cost is a factor... cost and time... look at all of the crappy animation from 70s Saturday morning cartoons.

Is that restored Feischer workstation yours (or was it on exhibit somewhere)? In the future, will people be lining up to view some old computer workstation with a TVP dongle sticking out of it?

Oh no, it's not mine, it's at an exhibit in New York (see link I included with picture). The picture came from the Cartoon Brew blog.

-- Brett

[Paul Fierlinger]

I use this punch. ~$700. Studio, table top model. I think it was 'only' about $500 when I bought it (long ago).

T believe it used to be $ 600 and it wasn't very good since you could punch about 3 or 4 papers at a time.

[User 767]

Even the big ol' pneumatic punches don't punch more than about 10 sheets at a time (maybe a little more)- I think it was because of tearing (no die to maintain hole form through all that paper or cel material). Doesn't matter. This punch has functioned fine for me for a long time now. Rebuilds and sharpening have been easy and cheap (and infrequent). I think some of the other manual punches have nicer handles (easier on your hands)- I suppose I'm the only one here who's still animating on paper, and cels (as well as digitally, depending on what I want it to look like).

kind of straying off the topic, sorry.

[idragosani]

Well, this is the off-topic forum and the topic was 'retro' animation ...