highlight x-sheet frames?

[slowtiger]

OK, I think my confusion belongs into this thread.

Remember my constant complain about not having an Xsheet (over there, in The Forum Which Shall Not Be Mentioned Anymore)? Now I have one and don't really get it. The manual is not really helpful in this case, I suspect that some basic assumptions are not mentioned there.

Here it goes so far as I have understood:

I have a project with a bunch of neatly named layers. I can toggle between Timeline view and Xsheet view, both views showing me the same content. My layers automatically show up as columns in the Xsheet view. But I can't modify or even select one of my layers in that Xsheet view. I have to create a special Xsheet layer first, then copy some content from the Source side into it. So far the manual is correct.

Now my troubles start. Firstly, the doubling of content is really confusing. I thought I could modify my original layers in Xsheet view, but no, I have to recreate each layer as an Xsheet layer in order to do that. In a project which already has 20+ layers this is Not A Good Thing.

I have difficulties with the way to select a range of images in the Xsheet layer. If I use just the mouse, either nothing happens, or I re-name my cel unintentionally, or I move it. I have to use RMB and choose "select image/all", but I'm unable to select just a range of images. The same goes for erasing an image or exposure: only possible via RMB menu.

Shifting a sequence of frames in time works via cut&paste, but not as freely as in Timeline view. I've searched for an "empty cel" command in vain, instead I have to create a new Xsheet layer for each occurance of an element which needs to show up repeatedly.

This is my understanding so far, is there any point I didn't get correctly? Can somebody please confirm if my understanding so far is correct? I don't want to suggest any changes right now since I don't really feel to have an idea how this could be improved. My current project which was started before Xsheets existed (in TVP) now needs some serious planning on paper, so I can decide which layers will stay Timelines and which are useful being done as Xsheets.

(I feel a bit like "Be careful what you wish for" ...)

[ZigOtto]

... Now my troubles start. Firstly, the doubling of content is really confusing. I thought I could modify my original layers in Xsheet view, but no, I have to recreate each layer as an Xsheet layer in order to do that. In a project which already has 20+ layers this is Not A Good Thing.

yes, when too much layers in a project, it could become a bit confusing, my "tips" are : a) in a single project workflow : in Timeline tab, hide the animlayer(s) source(s), in XSheet tab, enlight the [XS] button, so only the xsheet layers are visible left side,
b) if few layers only, you can use multiple projects workflow : one for each source with animlayer(s) in one's, and one as target, in which you will do the final timing, XSheet layers only, + Image layer for the BG.
forget b)option if you have many characters, each one made of seveval animlayers ...

... I have difficulties with the way to select a range of images in the Xsheet layer. If I use just the mouse, either nothing happens, or I re-name my cel unintentionally, or I move it. I have to use RMB and choose "select image/all", but I'm unable to select just a range of images. The same goes for erasing an image or exposure: only possible via RMB menu.

shift + left-click & drag for selecting a range,
[Suppr] for deleting the selected one(s).

... I've searched for an "empty cel" command in vain, instead I have to create a new Xsheet layer for each occurance of an element which needs to show up repeatedly.

yes, an "Add Empty Cell" button has been asked many times, and is still missing ... I hope we will get it soon ( before v.10?), but you can easily make yourself a dummy empty frame as source, then drag&drop it from right-side (source storage) to left-side in your XSheet layer (see pict),
... painfull, but it works, for the time being...

[slowtiger]

enlight the [XS] button, so only the xsheet layers are visible left side

That helps a lot. Still I'd prefer to be able to switch off layers individually.

[Suppr] for deleting the selected one(s).

What's that Suppr button? The one I get free meals with? *g* I suspect it's something on a PC keyboard only - I'm on Mac.

Thx for the input, it will do for now. I understand that an Xsheet layer is a reference only to the images, in the same way an instance is a reference to an image. Have to work a while with this and ponder about the concept. Oh, which of the Interface Items in the Preferences corresponds to the Xsheet columns? I need to increase the readability.

[ZigOtto]

What's that Suppr button?

oups... sorry!
[Del] button for international keyboard, [Suppr] being the equivalent on frenchy version keyboard .
btw, I've personally assigned Del key to the action from the Animator Panel,
so it works indifferently on selected range (if existing), or (when no selection) on the current frame.




ps : regarding the [Add Empty Cell] missing feature, the [Add Image After] button from the Animator panel,
or the command "Layer: Insert Singe Image After Current" works not only on AnimLayers,
but on XSheet-Layers as well ! (see pict.)
we can also add empty frame(s) on several XSheetLayers in once by using the command "Project: Insert Image After Current ...", but we have to lock the layers we don't want to be affected before.

[slowtiger]

I'm getting into it slowly. Doing the trick with the empty image suits me better, I named it "---" for better visual reference.

At first I ran into some crashes. My file is about 90 MB now, with about 30 layers, and will be some 3 minutes long in the end. I use the Room 4 for Xsheet work, with some trying I was able to adjust most stuff to my taste: a small project window on top, and nearly all of the screen for timeline/Xsheet. While tweaking this view, TVP crashed repeatedly when I started to use Xsheet. I re-arranged again and quit TVP so it could store the Room info properly, after that it seemed to work, so far.

I haven't succeded to get rid of the palettes and tool panels completely. And when my timeline starts at the left window border, it is annoying to have the tools pop up everytime I want to toggle a layer's visibility.

Right now the file is a mess, of course, but story emerges out of the chaos ... I keep track on paper and note frame numbers a lot, with the help of a table with seconds/frame correspondances. What still bothers me most with the TVP layers is that it can only contain one sequence of frames. In my music sequencer programs I can have blocks of notes in the same line separated with silence or with loops of the preceding block, which is a very convenient way to work for me. In TVP I have a block, followed perhaps by looping itself, but that was it: I can't even set a loop stop somewhere.

Now I thought I could have it my way in an Xsheet layer, but it is tedious handywork there because something like the "post behaviour: Repeat" doesn't exist inside the Xsheet layer. I need to repeatedly copy my loop part into it. Or is there a command hidden seomwhere I'm not aware of yet?

BTW, there's an inconsistency in naming the same thing differently: it is called "Loop" in one place and "Repeat" in others.

Of course some would like to say "with proper planning you wouldn't run into so much trouble". But I like to improvise as much as possible, with creating smaller bits of movement which I later arrange in time. At least I thought that was the sense in using computers: to be as flexible as possible ...

[malcooning]

it is annoying to have the tools pop up everytime I want to toggle a layer's visibility.

why don't you cancel the left panel bin, and move all your needed panels to the right one?

layers can only contain one sequence of frames

I agree, this leads to build up of many layers, which results in much scrolling up and down the tower of layers, and pumps up the file size. I'd love to see the use of blocks of frames too. (Maybe even each block could have it's own blend mode, although it'll probably clash with the layer blend mode).

[ZigOtto]

... What still bothers me most with the TVP layers is that it can only contain one sequence of frames. In my music sequencer programs I can have blocks of notes in the same line separated with silence or with loops of the preceding block, which is a very convenient way to work for me. In TVP I have a block, followed perhaps by looping itself, but that was it: I can't even set a loop stop somewhere.

if you mean in AnimLayers, YES you can !
it's the "Set Faux-Fixe value ..." feature that you need to use.
dragging the Instance tail, it will repeat not simply the Instance Head (= Hold),
but the set nb of frames, (= internal loop, or "Faux-Fixe").

... Now I thought I could have it my way in an Xsheet layer, but it is tedious handywork there because something like the "post behaviour: Repeat" doesn't exist inside the Xsheet layer. I need to repeatedly copy my loop part into it. Or is there a command hidden seomwhere I'm not aware of yet? ...

you're right, Copy/Paste the frames range as many times needed is the way to go for the time being,
as the "Set Faux-Fixe Value ..." is not yet implemented in XSheet-Layers.

[slowtiger]

Don't get me wrong: I'm quite happy so far with what's implemented. In ancient times we used to fill out Xsheets by hand ... no copy&paste, no "repeat"-button. I just like to have it a tad easier, because I know what software could do.

BTW no further crashes, but I take care to save everytime I created a new layer or did a bigger Xsheet operation. Saving takes two seconds only.

[slowtiger]

One trap I stepped into: if I have a sequence of frames already with exposures, they will get imported as source into Xsheet as if the exposures were real images. If I notice this after I already have put these images into Xsheet layers, and change the frame repeat of the original sequence to 1, then I end up with gaps in the animation. Have to redo those parts.

Do you now how annoying it is to try and select 1000 frames inside an Xsheet layer? Since I can only click&drag to select, there's no shortcut, like selecting a start frame, scroll down to the end, and shift-select the end frame. (Selecting all frames wasn't an option here.) Same goes for extending an Xsheet layer: the dragging goes very slowly, at about 4 frames a second. It doesn't help that trying to drag a line between two Xsheet frames doesn't work if the playback head is somewhere else: it will jump to that position and I have to find my working position again. I have to first click a frame to ensure the playback head is where I work.

The first/last page keys work to select the first and last frame of the selected layer, but the page up/down buttons do nothing, as well as my scroll wheel. Annoying to always have to click into the scrollbar.

[slowtiger]

Still crashes every hour or so. If I observed correctly, TVP crashes only when I try to click a source layer. Since I save after every operation, no work lost - so far.

[ZigOtto]

thanks to your feedback, Slowtiger,
it's very interesting to get, near realtime, your feelings on XSheet management,
and on what you think it could be improve to make it easier.

One trap I stepped into: if I have a sequence of frames already with exposures, they will get imported as source into Xsheet as if the exposures were real images.

this is precisely the XSheet technology,
the source is the material, it must be a series of drawings, one after the other, but not (already) timed,
the timing is done separately in the XSheet-Layer, by editing the spreadsheet.
Though, sometimes, it's useful to "pre-expose" the source, doing this, you can create (virtual) planed next-coming inbetweens (ex.: A - - B C - D - - E, so 10 drawings = 5 drawingKeys already made, and 5 inbetweens to add later), when you set the timing in the speadsheet, the preview "hold" the drawingKey when displaying a (virtual) inbetween, so you can preview a kind of animatic or pre-linetest (with keys only),
then, when validated, you can break and replace the virtual inbetweens by real ones.

... Do you now how annoying it is to try and select 1000 frames inside an Xsheet layer? Since I can only click&drag to select, there's no shortcut, like selecting a start frame, scroll down to the end, and shift-select the end frame ...

agreed, I've asked for that (LMB-click a start frame, and shift-LMB-click the end frame) about one year ago, because shift-click&drag is scrolling very sloooowly when reaching the botton of the XSheet window...
as work-around, I use to spot the end-frame position (B), the start-frame position (A),
then use a custom "Select Range" button. (see pict.)

[slowtiger]

OK, the big bunch of work is finished now, we had a "pre-premiere" tonight at our local animator's gathering (they liked it). I made some minor mistakes and now need to fine-tune the whole thing, then it gets its sound.

It was an interesting experience, after all. The file is 3100 frames long, not something I really recommend to do in one file, but this is my style and I'd do it again - but with much better planning before. Dimensions are 1828 x 1332px, 42 normal and 7 Xsheet layers. The file had 97 MB with all loops intact, but 6,9 GB after I merged the looped rain layers into one! Saving that last version took several minutes.

Seeing those dimensions in retrospect I must say it's amazing how TVP handles even that big bunch of a file. The few crashes were something I could expect from other programs as well if I feed them with big stuff. But next time I will organize the workflow much better - if I don't improvise everything again like this time. The layer notes were really helpfull to maintain some overview, although it takes practice to decipher them sideways in Xsheet view.