Ralph Bakshi on animation (from Comic Con 2008)

[idragosani]

He is spot on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WApcUBcVMos

[Paul Fierlinger]

I think he is off in the case of Bill Plympton and noticed how he wavered in his rant a bit before he found nothing more to add about Bill and sputtered on to another subject. The thing is, Plympton doesn't work out of a box at home, he draws on paper and has tracers come in to trace his line drawings onto acetate cels etc. -- until just recently he began to scan some stuff into a box and have someone finish it for him in their boxes. Plympton's subjects of his feature films are pretty old hat to me; alien invaders and busty women.

What's with animators and busty women anyway? These threads; are busting at the seams with them and they all look alike which means unreal, like prepubescent daydreams or Vukotich's Surogato.

Let's face it, Bakshi doesn't have it figured out -- he doesn't seem to understand why more people aren't making films by themselves at home, just like he never did -- and still doesn't. Right now, he brags, he has other animators come to his house to animate on his box so he doesn't have to do anything... so what else is not new?

The problem seems to be that very few people, including Bill Plympton, have anything urgent to say about their lives, or the lives of others they pass in the dark. I'll hand it to Bakshi that TerryToons got pretty boring but so have aliens invading us in spaceships and anatomically incorrect busty women invading the thin air of YouTubes.

So what's with these animators? Have you also noticed that there are plenty of designers but hardly an animator of busty women in sight? And do you want to know what I think of it all? No one has come up with a busty women story worth a dream because they don't exist -- they are aliens from outer space of spaced out kids. They are stills; there is nothing to animate about them -- top heavy paper dolls who can only sit, mostly dragged about on surfboards like fake dogs on wheels.

[Sierra Rose]

Hear, hear! Paul. I like Bakshi's "can-do" words but his films leave me cold. For all the action, there is no "there" there.

I also agree about Plympton and I get tired of people saying his name with so much praise.


This critique makes some very good points about The Lord of the Rings.

http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/bakshi/bakshi.htm

[slowtiger]

I didn't understand Bakshi's speech because of his accent - only every other word. Thx for the summary ...

What's wrong with busty women? Nothing, IMO. But there seems to be a big difference between american animators and the rest of the world, notably Japan. American animators leave them (the breasts) wrapped and don't dare to touch them, even more animate them. Japanese animators animate them unwrapped, and they animate sex. I think that's good enough for saying something about people ... *gg*

[idragosani]

I didn't understand Bakshi's speech because of his accent - only every other word. Thx for the summary ...

What's wrong with busty women? Nothing, IMO. But there seems to be a big difference between american animators and the rest of the world, notably Japan. American animators leave them (the breasts) wrapped and don't dare to touch them, even more animate them. Japanese animators animate them unwrapped, and they animate sex. I think that's good enough for saying something about people ... *gg*

Bakshi is famous for having richly endowed women in his films (with the exception of The Lord of the Rings). Although, I guess, with The Little Mermaid Disney actually started drawing them on their princesses.

[Anim8tor Cathy]

I think Joanna Quinn has done some nice story telling with older, "full-figured" gals as the subjects.

[Paul Fierlinger]

That's different, from my male POV at least. They weren't animated in a permanent, arched backwards position with parted lips, inviting the horny lads to pleasantly rape them because she's not going to tell anyone about it; as a matter of fact, she was born/drawn exactly for just that and like all women, has no other purpose or function in life, so help yourself little boy.

Her fat ladies are born to roll with the punches and she sure does punch 'em. Maybe I don't like them either all that much.

[User 767]

That's different, from my male POV at least. They weren't animated in a permanent, arched backwards position with parted lips, inviting the horny lads to pleasantly rape them because she's not going to tell anyone about it; as a matter of fact, she was born/drawn exactly for just that and like all women, has no other purpose or function in life, so help yourself little boy.

Her fat ladies are born to roll with the punches and she sure does punch 'em. Maybe I don't like them either all that much.

For a certain, large segment of population, that's what sells. I believe you're a supporter of commerce, capitalism, and consumption (from other posts), aren't you?

Doesn't Tulip have a sex scene?

OK, I find Bakshi's stuff offensive too. It's all just brain-washing. People eat it up [and don't want to eat what's good for them]. It's the world we live in-McFood, McMovies, McLife. I try to sneak in my point of view in everything I do. Often, it's ironic, and backfires. It's like the difference between "1984" being a handbook for some, and a sad commentary on society for others. I find it sad that people can consume trash, know that they're consuming trash, know that it's essentially wrong to consume trash, and yet they continue to consume trash with vigor.

**I guess "Brave New World" would be a more appropriate citing for this, wouldn't it? (which, incidentally, is a new Ridley Scott movie coming to a theater near you in two or three years, if all goes well).

That felt a bit disjointed. Maybe I need some rest and rephrase a bit.

[slowtiger]

Offensive? I don't know. I only have seen his "Lord of the Rings", "Cool World" and "Wizards", all of them 20 years ago. I'd like to see the other films, but only in decent quality, preferrably on a big screen. Right now I even can't get all of them on DVD here.

I don't know if I am able to enjoy them. One hurdle is the language, too much slang and dialect for my foreign ear to follow. Maybe a decent german dubbing will help. The other is his style: it is very 70's for my taste. I have the big book about his work, and it is an impressive body of work.

From what I've read, he's dealing a lot with sex and violence. So does Scorsese. Why should I feel offended by Bakshi from the same stuff I praise Scorsese for?

[Paul Fierlinger]

Why should I feel offended by Bakshi from the same stuff I praise Scorsese for?

No need to feel offended or apologetic if watching sex and violence play out on the screen excites you. As long as you don't carry out your fantasies in the back alleys of Berlin on my mother.

Perhaps with the exception of a few women, this just means that you are making films for less than half the population to perversely enjoy and the majority to be offended by. That would trouble me, if I had to work like that. I like women. As a matter of fact most of my friends are women so I don't get turned on by watching people insult them.

When it comes to commerce, I still stick to my moral principles... I have turned down TV spots that were offensive to women, to animals or were plain, dirty lies. Last year I turned down a commercial for Cialis (or whatever is the name for that other Viagra) that I found offensive to men. The script was written by a team of women who most likely saw in the spots an opportunity to get even with men for years of violations on their gender; a war of the sexes. It was for producer Peter Barg, who occasionally checks out these forums. I just think that like writers, we too should be the conscience of our nations and should hold a moral obligation to serve humanity, rather than degrade decency.

It's not a coincidence that the director and his characters speak in accents favored by the criminal elements. Must be great fun to be hated!

[slowtiger]

Not that I watch violent films very often, but in this case I have to ask: if something exists in the world, why should it be banned on screen? Hate and violence don't vanish just because one doesn't mention them (like US-TV's ridiculous ban on certain words doesn't prevent anything those words mean to happen). So I'd say there's no subject forbidden, no language banned, and no character portrayal taboo to the filmmaker. People behave like that and even worse.

There's only the question if it's a good movie. And it's a big difference if a film documents its subject, exploits its subject, or maybe propagates it.

[lemec]

Is it really true that most women are offended by sex and violence? Got any facts or figures? I've met a lot of girls, female artists and non-artists who really enjoy pictures of sexually-themed subject matter. Why is Youtube so full of girls who would like to appear sexy to the public? Heck, I love sex and violence. It's entertaining! If there is anything that offends me in this world, it's people who try to tell others what their moral values should or shouldn't be and try to control what others should or shouldn't watch. I'm in favour of having the choice of choose to imagine and think whatever we feel like.

On the other side of the coin, there are women who draw men in sexually compromising positions. Being a guy, do I feel offended? No. Why should I? Offense is just a conditioned response. I've never met an attractive girl who was offended by pictures of attractive women.

[Paul Fierlinger]

If there is anything that offends me in this world, it's people who try to tell others what their moral values should or shouldn't be and try to control what others should or shouldn't watch.

Now you are degrading this thread to pure demagoguery.
As is this statement-question:

I have to ask: if something exists in the world, why should it be banned on screen?

I feel as if you two are talking to someone who's posts are invisible to me. Where in my posts have I ever asked for the banning of anything? Does this quote from my post suggest that I want sex and violence banned?

No need to feel offended or apologetic if watching sex and violence play out on the screen excites you. As long as you don't carry out your fantasies in the back alleys of Berlin on my mother.

Where have I told others what their moral values should or shouldn't be? And point to any words through which I try to control what others should or shouldn't watch.

It seems to me that I am the one who is being silenced and controlled through the use of false interpretations of anything I have said.

[Sierra Rose]

Reminds me of the old cowboy gripe about gunslingers who shoot first and ask questions later. Some people are hair-triggered and go off easily. It's hard to have an honest discussion, Mark, when you declare your conclusions before really listening and acknowledging what others have said. You've "jumped the gun" with me enough times that I've given up trying to have an exchange with you. And I don't expect you to really respond to this post either.

[lemec]

Now you are degrading this thread to pure demagoguery.

demagoguery (69-point word, according the the Scrabble word calculator, 69 being my favourite number): Impassioned appeals to the prejudices and emotions of the populace

Perhaps with the exception of a few women, this just means that you are making films for less than half the population to perversely enjoy and the majority to be offended by. That would trouble me, if I had to work like that. I like women. As a matter of fact most of my friends are women so I don't get turned on by watching people insult them.

<------- Just following your example. I think the thread has a robust enough supply of varied demagoguery, opinion and rhetoric to survive demagoguery from li'l old me.

What's with animators and busty women anyway? These threads; are busting at the seams with them and they all look alike which means unreal, like prepubescent daydreams or Vukotich's Surogato.

The problem seems to be that very few people, including Bill Plympton, have anything urgent to say about their lives, or the lives of others they pass in the dark. I'll hand it to Bakshi that TerryToons got pretty boring but so have aliens invading us in spaceships and anatomically incorrect busty women invading the thin air of YouTubes.

Lovely baited traps for anyone who likes busty women, which is to say, "the majority of the other half of the population". If we don't say anything to get a response, why say it at all?

It seems to me that I am the one who is being silenced and controlled through the use of false interpretations of anything I have said.

Have any of your posts been censored? Then no, you haven't been silenced. Do we possess nefarious devices of mind-control? No. You are still in full control of your own actions. You might want to articulate yourself in a fashion that clearly states your intentions and prevents mistaken interpretations. Do suggestions count as a form of control?

Reminds me of the old cowboy gripe about gunslingers who shoot first and ask questions later. Some people are hair-triggered and go off easily.

This thread had 10 posts and was about 3 days old before I decided to get involved. Everything I wrote is in response to everything I read.

It's hard to have an honest discussion, Mark, when you declare your conclusions before really listening and acknowledging what others have said.

I write because I don't acknowledge what has been said. I comprehend what has been said, but I don't acknowledge it. I feel my disagreements are reasonably informed from whatever information was provided in the replies to the thread. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I have reached an ultimate and final conclusion. It means you have to provide additional arguments or rationale to support your stance before I feel it is convincing enough to accept.

If I'm to be accused of "shooting too fast", I'd accuse you of giving up too easily! If you possess strong conviction in your point of view, show it! Prove me wrong! Provide solid logical arguments that take the legs out of under my own point of view. I thirst for the learning experience of defeat in a debate.

And I don't expect you to really respond to this post either.

...but you wanted me to, and I have graciously complied!