Suggestion for a Learning Forum

[Anim8tor Cathy]

I was wondering if it would be possible to create a “learning forum” – a place where students and enthusiasts like me could pose questions to the more seasoned animators.
I know I have a lot of questions I’d like to ask Paul and others (with their permission) and I was going to PM them about this, but then I thought it would really benefit others who may want to learn, as I do, if the questions and answers were in a public forum.

Although these questions could be posted in the General Discussions Forum, putting them in their own forum would make them easier to access. I find myself scouring all these forums to catch glimpses of information anywhere I can find it.

Just an idea – wondering if anyone else would like to see something like this?

[Paul Fierlinger]

Cathy, there is a forum, called Animation here, which I think is perfectly suitable for any critiques. We all learn from each other all the time -- it never ends. I wouldn't present my work on a learning forum because I would look pretentious and Fanany would chase me down a hole, but to present my work on a general "show us what you are working on right now" works for everybody. I might show something with a specific question: "The characters in the background aren't in motion; does this bother you, or do you not notice?" and I learn from the answers.

While on the subject, personally I find comments such as "That is very nice work Dicky", or my favorite worst; "Coolieo" completely unhelpful because those are comments with no commentaries. Tell us why you like it; trigger a discussion and we begin to all learn from another person's contribution. I, and I'm sure there are others here like me, am happy to suggest my views of a beginner's work and give constructive advice, but if I had to do it within a Teaching or Learning Forum, I'd feel I'm being put to work to save someone the money for a correspondence course, and would loose a sense of enjoyment which I otherwise get when finding myself to be useful to others.

[Anim8tor Cathy]

You point is well taken and dually noted, Paul.

[Geopeto]

I agree with your thinking Paul, and thanks for all i have already learned from you, and others............

[idragosani]

While on the subject, personally I find comments such as "That is very nice work Dicky", or my favorite worst; "Coolieo" completely unhelpful because those are comments with no commentaries. Tell us why you like it; trigger a discussion and we begin to all learn from another person's contribution. I, and I'm sure there are others here like me, am happy to suggest my views of a beginner's work and give constructive advice, but if I had to do it within a Teaching or Learning Forum, I'd feel I'm being put to work to save someone the money for a correspondence course, and would loose a sense of enjoyment which I otherwise get when finding myself to be useful to others.

It's for these reasons I don't like posting art on deviantArt or similar kinds of sites... it seems they are more 'slap your buddies on the back for a job well' kind of thing, regardless of how good or bad the art actually is. I don't want to be made to feel good, I want an honest (and hopefully objective) assessment and suggestions on what I can do to make my work better. I liked posting stuff on the Mirage forums and like doing it here because there is more of a critical eye (especially by you, Paul, you never pull punches, and that's good!)

[Paul Fierlinger]

I'm hoping that the other old timers will soon pitch in too, now that we are all back under a reunification roof. We used to all dig into each other back then too, and it was a joy I often missed during the past couple of years.

Every software is as good as its user group and there are plenty of examples of newcomers openly expressing their choice for one product just for the liveliness of its forum. To keep TVPaint in development we need to all play our part here. 2D is such a small niche market that it's going to take some effort on our part to make its name better known.

[Klaus Hoefs]

We used to all dig into each other back then too, and it was a joy I often missed during the past couple of years.

Having this also said at Lemec's forum some time ago, I underline that now again.
I've experienced that a honest feedback is equally important for the pro, semi-pro, student and starter.
This is for sure no one way street.

[fanany]

... and Fanany would chase me down a hole, ...

ideed, Fanany used to be rutheless in his judgement, but it's the past now,
and he is more compliant by now, forbearing little mistakes and other wrong attitudes ...
but he may recover his natural intransigence at any time, so don't push him !

I'm hoping that the other old timers will soon pitch in too, now that we are all back under a reunification roof. We used to all dig into each other back then too, and it was a joy I often missed during the past couple of years.
... To keep TVPaint in development we need to all play our part here. 2D is such a small niche market that it's going to take some effort on our part to make its name better known.

count me in,
even when staying quiet, my alter-ego Zig spreads my words and my thoughts as well as I would do ...

[Sierra Rose]

I so appreciate this thread.

As one who has benefited greatly from Paul's kind and careful and astute feedback on the Mirage Forums, I look forward to also hearing from him and others here who have been extremely helpful on that forum long ago. I might even be advanced enough to contribute a critique myself now.

If I ever get my new computer back with all my files on it, that is.

[lemec]

Nice to see you again, Paul!

I know how you feel about having to spend your time teaching someone for free, especially when you have your own paid projects going on. My situation is quite different. Most of the work that comes in to me comes from inexperienced clients who are very protective of half-baked ideas. The only jobs where I actually have fun and create work I'm proud of are the jobs where I'm given a great deal of freedom -- practically free reign with nothing but a deadline. One of those clients asked me to make a Flash game for a Nicorette ad campaign and they were REALLY happy with the end result. It's one of the few things I bother to show anyone. I gotta stop rambling, but what I'm trying to say is that there aren't enough clients in my area who are willing to let me do my job properly.

But teaching... teaching is so much fun for me. I've managed to learn so much when I teach - when I try to explain something to someone, I start to discover all sorts of inconsistencies and faults in my methods and that's when I really start to learn! Many of my techniques found sudden refinement when the REC light was on! I can't possibly want to work for a client who will carrot-dangle and vacillate and barely pay my rent when I have so many more lessons to record and I feel so motivated to continue teaching. I know that my potential audience for the things I teach is enormous - it's anyone who is interested in painting, especially the DeviantART crowd. In my experience as a college teacher, I know that there are a lot of students who don't or won't put in the effort necessary to become useful artists, but there was always a handful that I felt had hope. So I have to post these videos for the world to see so that I can reach those handfuls of students, and perhaps one day I'll be able to make a profession out of correspondence courses, but I gotta do everything I can to let people know I'm worth corresponding with...

...And I'm keeping high-resolution versions of everything for the day I have enough to fill a DVD. People can buy that if they want!

[Paul Fierlinger]

Hi, Mark.

I know how you feel about having to spend your time teaching someone for free,

This wasn't exactly what I meant. I will always feel comfortable helping anyone who feels they can gain some knowledge from me; this is in the genes of most aged people; it's nature's purpose for keeping us around after our useful hunting and reproductive years have been spent. I just meant to say that a forum specifically designated to learning and teaching may give the impression of an entitlement, and I would have a hard time fitting myself into that mode, whether I would be the one placing the question or offering the answer; that's all.

Good to see you again too. Since I'm on the line with you I have a MAC oriented question. Did you ever make a plugin for installing the pen cursor into TVP that runs on the MAC? I have a friend who would like to have something like that.

[lemec]

To develop plugins for the Mac, I'd need a mac, unfortunately. Since I myself don't use one, and no one's paying me to develop on it (I hardly even get paid to develop on the PC!), it's hard to get started with Mac development.

But to bring the thread back on topic... I think a learning forum would be nice if only to offer a place to categorize all those threads floating about in the Content Sharing and General forums. Even though I like to teach, when I work, I always have a million questions that I cannot answer just yet. I still manage to learn what I do by fighting for those answers, and it's a lot of blood and sweat, but the knowledge is real.

I think the real problem is that many people aren't willing to go lose a little blood and sweat before they ask for help - they're not used to first trying to expend all their options before they look for an answer on a forum. When you have a truly difficult problem, when you are lacking in something very valuable and important, you have to empty yourself before you are ready to receive the knowledge. My dogged and stupid determination to try every crazy idea out and wring my poor brain is my way of emptying myself out. When I am empty, I am willing to listen to advice without my impetuous assumptions getting in the way - because I've already exhausted them!

I feel that for a learning community to work, you need people who are willing to dig deep and find the answers for themselves, because when you have earned knowledge the hard way, you no longer feel entitled to it. Perhaps a wiki would be good for all the simple little questions like: "how do I mask a layer?", and we can use the forum as a place where all these simple questions originate. We'd need people to maintain the wiki and move the answers from the forum, but it'd be a good start.

[Fabrice]

Hey Mark,

When you have a truly difficult problem, when you are lacking in something very valuable and important, you have to empty yourself before you are ready to receive the knowledge.

I already heard this somewhere (a famous artist or scientist told something very close ! )

Well, we will have to go deeper into the training question !
Fortunalety, the train trip between Paris and Annecy last 4 or 5 hours, so we will have plenty of time !

nb : it's always a pleasure to see your tutorials and also those from CressHead on Youtube !

[lemec]

I already heard this somewhere (a famous artist or scientist told something very close ! )

Well, my old art teacher used to say "you have to empty your cup". I think he meant that you have to let go of your assumptions - not an easy thing, mind!

Richard Feynman used to say that there are times where he'd get this terrible feeling of confusion, as if he were some kind of ape trying to put two sticks together to reach a banana, and often, no matter what he'd try, the sticks just wouldn't go together and he'd feel pretty stupid. I'd like to add that it's only when you're feeling as though you've dug yourself deep in the depths of stupidity that you've nowhere to go but up!

Well, we will have to go deeper into the training question !
Fortunately, the train trip between Paris and Annecy last 4 or 5 hours, so we will have plenty of time !

nb : it's always a pleasure to see your tutorials and also those from CressHead on Youtube !

As long as people are grateful to have help, I am happy to help! I only wish I knew how much of an influence my video tutorials actually had on a person's work.

[Keep Shooting]

As long as people are grateful to have help, I am happy to help! I only wish I knew how much of an influence my video tutorials actually had on a person's work.

It certainly is appriciated as for every-one who is sharing knowledge. As for your video-tutorials... I just found out through this thread.
I think it pleads for a kind of "learning-section" in this forum, for it would be a pitty that people who would benefit from seeing them, wouldn't be able to find them.
Might even have a "starterskit-section" for all people new in (digital) animation?

I think the real problem is that many people aren't willing to go lose a little blood and sweat before they ask for help - they're not used to first trying to expend all their options before they look for an answer on a forum. When you have a truly difficult problem, when you are lacking in something very valuable and important, you have to empty yourself before you are ready to receive the knowledge.

Agreed, some people are like that, but why bother about them?
An other argument for a learning-section I think - saves time
And I would like to break a lance for people looking for answers - I think you have to be able to even see a variety of options - working with image-processing in term of using all possibilities of a program is a way of thinking, don't underestimate that.
For a periode of 6 years I have been giving courses on digital photogaphy, video and animation to art academie students as well as to enthousiastic amateurs. Made learning-books and tutorials (that is really hard work indeed) and learnt that people in general easily got lost in the enormous pile of (spread) information on equipment and software. So naturally they started asking first; for the simple fact that I was there and therefore easy accessible.
So in terms of easy access, I think a learning forum is a good idea.

regards, Conny