[TVP12] Folder opacity On invidual layers / Restriction image&sound Starts on Clip

[ini]

Actually, I've made a Topic on about This on 'Feature & Improvement requests'
But It seems there is not expected to improve and,
I hope this have to be considerd seriously, so I will write about it here again.


[TVP12] Folder opacity is affecting opacity of invidual layers
https://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?t=16438

Currently Folder opacity is affecting opcity of invidual layers,
Is this what the folder opacity supposed to do?

I thought It would not be blended, like this


=====================================================================================================

[TVP12] about new Limitation of image&sound Starts on Clip's Timeline in tvp 12
https://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?t=16434

1.The start of sound file is not going over the start of clip timeline.
We can't use sound from the middle of the file. even if it's splitted sound.
I found that I can do it from editing offset, but dragging is re-setting this.

2.Image stratching is not strached over the timeline.
by doing this, we could use (-)minus timeline.
I could saving the footage completely, and also could place the footage from the middle of the file which was the main purpose of that footage.
Or we could hide Somthing that I have to hide.

It seems drag is restrincted to timeline start associated with seleted object's start.

and additionally Layer -> Aligning Right is restricted also with them.

Anyway, in 11, because normal dragging in cilp timeline was restricted before,
so if the user using it, by Image stratching layer corner or with aligning layer function, It means They are using it on purpose and it makes tvp combinient.

I think It's causing user's additional action to controlling timeline and it's limitating great feature of tvp 11.
If I want to use sound from the middle, I have to cut it from other software.

Splitting the sound is usable, but it will re-setting this I touch the sound.
And this is not usable way,
If I put the sound on the middle, and Split the clip by the middle, so that I use the sound where I want to use it from,
Because the clip's images is not starting the middle of the clip usually, so I need to move the images also.

And If there is many sound file in one clip, editing it is impossible.....
I know there is the project sound and there is 'split track to clips', but it can't control them conbiniently.

And I can use 'split track to clips' , but once I touch them, It will reset the sound start to start of the clip.
If the restriction is on purpose, why the 'split track to clips' function exist?
It seems the restricting the start from the clip start is big mistake.

[Léo]

Hello ini,
I will answer to both request individually :

Folder opacity On invidual layers

[TVP12] Folder opacity is affecting opacity of invidual layers
https://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?t=16438

Currently Folder opacity is affecting opcity of invidual layers,
Is this what the folder opacity supposed to do?

Indeed, the folder opacity is affecting the opacity of the layers inside.
It will apply the same opacity on each layers uniformly.

I thought It would not be blended, like this

As in your case, it is 2 separate layers it can't apply the opacity on only the blend of the 2 layers.

Restriction image&sound Starts on Clip

[TVP12] about new Limitation of image&sound Starts on Clip's Timeline in tvp 12
https://forum.tvpaint.com/viewtopic.php?t=16434

Spoiler : :

1.The start of sound file is not going over the start of clip timeline.
We can't use sound from the middle of the file. even if it's splitted sound.
I found that I can do it from editing offset, but dragging is re-setting this.

2.Image stratching is not strached over the timeline.
by doing this, we could use (-)minus timeline.
I could saving the footage completely, and also could place the footage from the middle of the file which was the main purpose of that footage.
Or we could hide Somthing that I have to hide.

It seems drag is restrincted to timeline start associated with seleted object's start.

and additionally Layer -> Aligning Right is restricted also with them.

Anyway, in 11, because normal dragging in cilp timeline was restricted before,
so if the user using it, by Image stratching layer corner or with aligning layer function, It means They are using it on purpose and it makes tvp combinient.

I think It's causing user's additional action to controlling timeline and it's limitating great feature of tvp 11.
If I want to use sound from the middle, I have to cut it from other software.

Splitting the sound is usable, but it will re-setting this I touch the sound.
And this is not usable way,
If I put the sound on the middle, and Split the clip by the middle, so that I use the sound where I want to use it from,
Because the clip's images is not starting the middle of the clip usually, so I need to move the images also.

And If there is many sound file in one clip, editing it is impossible.....
I know there is the project sound and there is 'split track to clips', but it can't control them conbiniently.

And I can use 'split track to clips' , but once I touch them, It will reset the sound start to start of the clip.
If the restriction is on purpose, why the 'split track to clips' function exist?
It seems the restricting the start from the clip start is big mistake.

I inderstand your concern about the restriction on the Images / Clips sarting frame.
We currently removed the ability to put images and sound in negative timeline due to issues with negative frames.
In order to do what he wants, he can:
• Start your ANIM frames further in the timeline where your sound should start and put a MARK IN
• Cut your sound outside of TVPaint and then import it (less convenient I agree)

There is currently an internal discussion about this subject ("split track to clips" function included) and we will come back to the subject later.
We have to see what can be done to improve everything and be more convenient to use.

[kelanhordos]

Regarding the opacity issue, I appreciate the answer but it seems to have not addressed the underlying question in the other thread, which is that this seems less useful and counter-intuitive in how different this operates from a folder opacity control in other programs. So a question still remains, is this a limit of the Tvpaint engine or could it be changed? It seems on the face of it that folder opacity functioning as other art programs do would be more useful overall but if it is not possible that is unfortunate, but understandable.

I myself am still exploring how to use the folder blend modes in a useful way, so would appreciate other people's opinions, as my vote would be if possible for the change to function as other programs do.

[D.T. Nethery]

the underlying question in the other thread, which is that this seems less useful and counter-intuitive in how different this operates from a folder opacity control in other programs. It seems on the face of it that folder opacity functioning as other art programs do would be more useful overall.

+1 . Yes, absolutely. It's better for everyone , especially for those who are not currently TVPaint users , but could be convinced to change to TVPaint (especially now with the addition of the long-awaited folders), however I know for a fact these people will be quite frustrated and disappointed if they are coming from programs like Clip Studio Paint , After Effects, Photoshop, Toonboom Harmony.

[ini]

I also predicted Folder like blow one, so thought it was bug.

is this a limit of the Tvpaint engine or could it be changed? It seems on the face of it that folder opacity functioning as other art programs do would be more useful overall but if it is not possible that is unfortunate, but understandable.

If we seperate it as another clip, I think the x-sheet function was usable as a folder, when we control the opacity.
(It's like fixed Symbol in anmate or flash, but can't use move the coordinate or recising like Vector tool, but currently we have a rigging tool, these can be realized potentially)
By the way, Blending mode was worked for the screen and exporting, but the 'preview' was not worked As I thought.
so, I think It's not impossible for tvp.

If folder is affecting the result of works, and there was no folder forever, I would have recommend control it with george.

so, if the folder opacity in 12 was intentional, It's quite disappointing thing.

+1 . Yes, absolutely. It's better for everyone , especially for those who are not currently TVPaint users , but could be convinced to change to TVPaint (especially now with the addition of the long-awaited folders), however I know for a fact these people will be quite frustrated and disappointed if they are coming from programs like Clip Studio Paint , After Effects, Photoshop, Toonboom Harmony.

Exatly, I heard when 12 has folder, excited, and after used it once, surely tought it's a bug, and now, disappointed.

We currently removed the ability to put images and sound in negative timeline due to issues with negative frames.

There is currently an internal discussion about this subject ("split track to clips" function included) and we will come back to the subject later.
We have to see what can be done to improve everything and be more convenient to use.

What was the ploblem of the Negative timeline?

If it's possible, Can you deliver this to that internal discussion...?

Even if the tvp 11 restricted it in image on timeline by drag,
we still could use negative timline selectively(goerge and instance corner dragging), when we want to use.
It was quite usable way,.
If the negative timeline have the interference with others, like project preview, Tvp 11 was can just cut it when we use Negative timeline.
Sound and image was cut automatically in 11, and X-sheet was usable for negative selectively even if there was not listed.

[Léo]

Hello ini,

is this a limit of the Tvpaint engine or could it be changed? It seems on the face of it that folder opacity functioning as other art programs do would be more useful overall but if it is not possible that is unfortunate, but understandable.

If we seperate it as another clip, I think the x-sheet function was usable as a folder, when we control the opacity.
(It's like fixed Symbol in anmate or flash, but can't use move the coordinate or recising like Vector tool, but currently we have a rigging tool, these can be realized potentially)
By the way, Blending mode was worked for the screen and exporting, but the 'preview' was not worked As I thought.
so, I think It's not impossible for tvp.

If folder is affecting the result of works, and there was no folder forever, I would have recommend control it with george.

so, if the folder opacity in 12 was intentional, It's quite disappointing thing.

We had a lot of discussion about this subject with all the team during the development of the folders. But you have good argument, we will see want can be done.
We need to include Thierry to this discussion, he will come back from holidays in 2 weeks. Stay tuned.

We currently removed the ability to put images and sound in negative timeline due to issues with negative frames.

There is currently an internal discussion about this subject ("split track to clips" function included) and we will come back to the subject later.
We have to see what can be done to improve everything and be more convenient to use.

What was the ploblem of the Negative timeline?

If it's possible, Can you deliver this to that internal discussion...?

Allowing users to produce negative images doesn't make a lot of sense from a temporal standpoint and can also lead to many bugs.
Other software where you can manipulate a timeline allow you to place markers so the content you are producing actually "starts" after the playback starts browsing the timeline, but it is quite a rare occurrence for them to allow placing content in "negative" time.
I think it would be more efficient to add a way to actually cut audio files on the sound timeline.

Even if the tvp 11 restricted it in image on timeline by drag,
we still could use negative timline selectively(goerge and instance corner dragging), when we want to use.
It was quite usable way,.
If the negative timeline have the interference with others, like project preview, Tvp 11 was can just cut it when we use Negative timeline.
Sound and image was cut automatically in 11, and X-sheet was usable for negative selectively even if there was not listed.

There is something we have to investigate, our devs will look into it as soon as possible. We also need to include Thierry to this discussion.

[ini]

Thanks for reply.

Allowing users to produce negative images doesn't make a lot of sense from a temporal standpoint and can also lead to many bugs.

I think tvp is quite far from the temporal standpoint and it feels irony.

TVP or AE is timeline based tool and putting the source freely on timeline,
on the other hand, Clip is based by the picture making time(timesheet) with it.
Because It was quite comvinient to dealing with timeline with source anf drawing, Animator selected it with many handicaps. and If we see the AE, can we say it is temporal standpoint....?

By claiming classical dawing based tool, Tvp criticised on some opinion with comparing with other tools which is updating 3D or something new for a while. I don't think so, but still, tvp had a great merit on at some point campared with other dawing tools

And finnally we got rigging tool, when I tested 12 demo, testing the rigging tool, I felt enormous unstability - every ten minutes. It was unstabled more than the x-sheet.

On 11, I think I catched many critical bugs but, negative timeline was just fine with it.
and the way to control the negative timeline of 11,was great.
->ostensibly restricted but users allowed when they takes action or have the will to use it.

If there was bug with it, I want to know what the bug was and if that bug can predicted in spesific case,
I have the will to use it, in spite of all the bugs or thinking about the way to prevent bug. Like currently when I'm saving.
I am checking the 'view current layer only' is off before the saving, because of the currently known bug.
How about make an option with negative timeline?

I think it would be more efficient to add a way to actually cut audio files on the sound timeline.

In my experience, Audio files with tvp made tremendous refferencing issues in studio.
Actually cutting audio files will make another audio file, and it must be annoying.
If negative timeline is allowed like 11 there is no need to add it.
(If there is, it's combinient, but It's already possible to control with split track function. the ploblem is from the new restriction)

As I said on other post...or not...?, original clip or original file is important, so I want to saving it on timeline somewhere.
so If I want to use or put it from the center, I could use negative timeline in 11,

But to keep it in 12, there is so many action to take, which was what you recommend(mark in/out and moving all of the images) requires more actions than before.

Think about when you sound syc frame by frame, everytime you adjust proper timing of image or sound, we have to adjust it.
In worst case, Maybe I have to take action on sound and timeline both side and every time I adjust something.
Or there is one hours of sound file and I have to use last ine minute.

And this case Like what you said, cutting actual file will cause chaos. you have to cut it every time to adjust sync.
I guess I previews over 4-5times partially for the sync, and for the all over the project, more than that.
It requires many actions to user to make something.

And additionally, These are bloking aligning layers with multiple selection,
and will have restriction on controlling george. someone will feel the fuction is not working.

There is something we have to investigate,

oh.... please.... I hope this is not meaning additional restiction on 11.
because of other issues like blendingmode on saving while 'view current layer only issues', whith was occured since all the period of 11, I guess there must be an update on 11.
but if update come with complete restiction on 11, It will be quite depressing thing which is restriction and satability will co-exist.

[Léo]

Please read carefully, we know that TVPaint, while aiming to feel as much as possible like animating traditionally, overcomes traditional tools in many ways.
TVPaint's bias towards imitating traditional tools is not the same as directly criticizing more modern methods of animation, at which point did we officially declare that we deemed vector or 3D animation inferior?
Internally we always wanted to implement evolutions to the software and engine, the rigging tool is part of these and of course this is a tool that not all users will be interested in.
And yes, one can say that working on a new tool is indirectly not working on another one, we are aware of that.
However, as any other company, we have to deal with time constraints and limited manpower. If the X-Sheet had to be reworked for v12.0, which other rework would you have put aside? Everyone would have their own answer to this question.
It is crucial to establish priorities and, as an example, a revamped default camera and rigging capabilities were asked for much more than a new X-Sheet during v11's lifetime.

During the development of TVPaint Animation 12 we had to modify lot of parts of the code to have better stability and better performances. With these changes, the Negative Timeline created led to issues. We have also our own logic about the use of the Timeline and I explained to you why. Being able to have negative images in the software is something that is not accounted for in many parts of the code and will lead to unexpected behavior.
We can't tell you which bugs it might cause, also we can't know the extent of this issue precisely.

I don't consider bug fixing as a restriction if it aims to prevent your workflow from being disrupted by potential crashes.
What if you were able to properly cut sound samples on the timeline instead of having to use negative images?

[ini]

First of all, I'm sorry.
I feel I don't want to post anymore...I was rude.

We have also our own logic about the use of the Timeline and I explained to you why. Being able to have negative images in the software is something that is not accounted for in many parts of the code and will lead to unexpected behavior.
We can't tell you which bugs it might cause, also we can't know the extent of this issue precisely.

Used-negative-timeline-file is currently could be open in 12.
And I could put images to negative timeline by using some way in 12, even if it was temporary.
If new codes of tvp 12 is not allowing negative images by restricting it,
tvp had to restrict timeline itself to unaccessible , but It didn't and just restricted users action. (First time I exprienced it, I felt It was for letting the touch users to prevent to move negative by accidently.)

So, I guessed tvp 12 negative timeline is accessible, just users action was restricted.
I'm saying just give us option to use it. checkbox or something

About the potential crash.

I don't consider bug fixing as a restriction if it aims to prevent your workflow from being disrupted by potential crashes.

Are you saying that putting images to negative in 11 was a bugs,too?
Potential crashes is so depressing thing, I know.
From the moment I bought 11, there was tremendous crashing down. I also lost many days from it.

But, what I want to say, is that all of the crashing down in 11 was had specific reason,
and if there was crash I found the reason and if tvp developement is not reacting it, I avoid that behavior.
And recently crashing down was gone.
and all the time, Negative timeline was not the reason of crashes of 11.

And even in the unstable rigging tool, THERE WAS suspisious reason or,
I got to know which of my action was causing the crashing down.
If there is bug, we report, and tvp developement will fix it not to crashing down.
or I just accept it and not use that fuction or take a behavior.

With announcement of 12, I wanted to test new fuctions and with just 2 or 3 minutes, there was crashing down.
and the test is just ended up with crashing down. The action I took before the crashing down was clear so I reported it.
And for other potential crashes by running tvp 12, If there are crashing down others will report it.
and every reason will be cleared by someone someday by the time goes.

But you are saying potential crashes.

At least, please remain it as an option to use it in 11, if you are recognizing this as bug, just.... don't fix it..
and I don't care about 12, at least I hope the tvp 11 have to be remain still-combiniently usable tool.

What if you were able to properly cut sound samples on the timeline instead of having to use negative images?

Everytime I change 'the sound or images of timeline' which is related with starts of timeline will require the action to cut or resizing it or mark in moving or something.
It's not interact in realtime with frequent syncing If we took a way of cutting sound.

And about the X-sheet,
It was the only realtimely-referencing system in tvp.

The X-sheet system was the only way to using Automatically modifing many copies by editing original by referencing it.
It was the only fuction, which is not requires user's to act on copied X-sheet layers.
-fx need to re-render If I edit parameter.
-Rigging system is referencing libraray, but labrary is copies of pictures saved from somewhere.
If I want to edit original one, adjustment is requiring users to act many things.

I know real-timely reacting by original thing is heavy, but it was worth.

By using negative timeline and realtimely-referencing system that does less requiring action
could recovered our time constraints and limited manpower, thank you.

[ini]

What you are saying, 'negative timeline is doesn't make a lot of sense from a temporal standpoint'
I understand that point of view. and yes, It doesn't make sense,In the point of view of entire timeline.

Maybe It could be tvp developement having the point of view about this.

But, by having the point of view like that, actually the point of view of entire is not related with this,
By just blocking acess to negative timeline directly, Tvp Dev will throwing away previously degined good point.

Tvp 11 or previous version considered about the situation under the possibility of image could be exist on negative in clip,
because basically tvp is run by timeline.
(maybe 12 also considered in case of existing images and sounds on negative timeline. If tvp dev not suring whether it will cause crash or not,
I guess It's probably related with info of starts of clip and new referencing feature like rigging and library, or tossing the negative stars info and images to import other tools.)

Whether It was Intentional or not, Tvp until now considered about it or designated considering that case.
As a result, Tvp11 or previous could ignore negative timeline in entire of view.
It considered not only the irregular local timeline, but also considered entire, global-timeline by developing tvp to ignore them in entire point of view.
That was the coolist thing and gave us comviniency to use.

And luckly, whether it was not intentional or intentional, there was no bugs, tvp was made by dev to avoid the ploblem completly.
And as a result, it didn't required the additional action to us when we controlling local timeline's contents.

If developement will not allow it, because of potential crash, it could be an loosing convenient good feature.
please give an option to users.

If there is potential crash in the future, many of it will occured by referencing the info related with starts of the clip,
it can cause referencing or coping and exporting feature like -rigging, libaray, x-sheets.
Or when reading the starts of the clip and exporting info of it or when importing from the other tool automatically base by that info,
there would be a ploblem.

But these are could be a predictable point, and there will be way to ignoring it like as 11 or previous did.
Even the x-sheet which was not updated for a while, was not having the ploblem with negative timline,
And as an engineer or prorammer's view, if the crash is predicting by negative timeline,
there were probably way to avoiding interfering factors with other functions.
by degining them to ignore or refferencing from the starts of timeline or Mark in point

I want to say this.
Negative timeline itself was not the crashing fator,
if there will be, that's because we took action, in case of that action or function is not degined to react to even negative timeline info

As like previous, the negative time line is exist, already, still in 12.
Then, It means new codes are considered that case, from the previous version. because 12's timeline logic followed previous,
Maybe would not be the ploblem.
Second reason I can guess is Other function's consideration is not degined to react with it.
Left thing is, your concerning to potential carshing but, I think it will be occured mainly by from the reason like above.
12 was having many obvious crashing from the start,
Just because of the potential carshing, just blocking it up is not understandble thing.

11's upgrade to 12 will loose the access tvpp by using 11, and 12 will reset when I touch 11's negative timeline object.
This will also cause many inconvinient to editing, to dealing with many files.

Maybe I have to wait for Thierry to know about the reason why dev just blocked it up.
there could have the way to avoid interfering factor by intentionally degining tvp's functions to not interfering with this.

...having hope.

[TVPUSER]

I want to also add that the opacity behavior is also counter intuitive to me as well. It feels more like a bug than a feature right now.