Restore Apple ProRes export options to Mac version of TVPaint

[D.T. Nethery]

My experience with Apple ProRes 4444 codec (and other Apple ProRes codecs) is that Apple ProRes has better color fidelity than FFMpeg ProRes 4444 .
In previous versions of TVPaint (I think up to 11.0.10) Mac users had the option to use Apple ProRes codecs for exporting to MOV.

My request is that Mac users of TVPaint would have the option to export using Apple ProRes codecs using the Apple AVFoundation framework, which is pre-installed with macOS.

Both Adobe After Effects (and Adobe Media Encoder) and Toonboom Harmony continue to make use of Apple ProRes codecs.

Adobe After Effects ProRes codecs -

Adobe Media Encoder ProRes codecs-

Toonboom Harmony ProRes codecs -

Screen Shot 2022-10-13 at 3.01.24 PM.png (77.64 KiB) Viewed 7232 times

Why not TVPaint ?


See this discussion in Technical Support which prompted this Feature & Improvement Request - viewtopic.php?t=15177

[Thierry]

From what I remember these options were only present in the 32-bits versions of TVPaint, and were never present in the 64-bits, even in TVPaint 10.
We'll certainly take a look, but it might take a while to have them again.

[D.T. Nethery]

From what I remember these options were only present in the 32-bits versions of TVPaint, and were never present in the 64-bits, even in TVPaint 10.
We'll certainly take a look, but it might take a while to have them again.

Yes , I always had the impression that the Quicktime codecs (like Apple ProRes) were 32-bits only , but the continued presence of Apple ProRes codecs in 64-bits applications like Adobe After Effects and Toonboom Harmony give me hope that the Apple ProRes codecs could again be included as an option in TVPaint 64-bits.

[Xavier]

Yes , I always had the impression that the Quicktime codecs (like Apple ProRes) were 32-bits only , but the continued presence of Apple ProRes codecs in 64-bits applications like Adobe After Effects and Toonboom Harmony give me hope that the Apple ProRes codecs could again be included as an option in TVPaint 64-bits.

If you read this it doesn't sound like the ProRes has been abandonned : https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202410
I think that it should be possible to introduce the ProRes profiles in the FFmpeg plugin for TVPaint. In example this link describes how to do: https://ottverse.com/ffmpeg-convert-to- ... 2-4444-hq/

I think that TVPaint was not really meant to deal with the export formats: given there's always post-processing to do in another software, you could simply export your work in a lossless format compatible with your other software. Yet I also think that we should meet the user needs. So to me this export thing should be improved.

[slowtiger]

Improved it definitely should be! My workflow depends on seamless and reliable export-import from TVP to Moho and sometimes back again. For years this went well with PNG codec (I still prefer to use TVP 10). Then Apple abandoned QT, so I had to convert these old .movs to ProRes (no big deal). Then they skipped PNG codec support entirely. If my old Mac dies, I will have to use TVP 11 only, so I need a reliable solution for this. AVI is out of the question.

[Xavier]

Improved it definitely should be! My workflow depends on seamless and reliable export-import from TVP to Moho and sometimes back again. For years this went well with PNG codec (I still prefer to use TVP 10). Then Apple abandoned QT, so I had to convert these old .movs to ProRes (no big deal). Then they skipped PNG codec support entirely. If my old Mac dies, I will have to use TVP 11 only, so I need a reliable solution for this. AVI is out of the question.

But don't you lose a bit of quality each time you export to ProRes ? it is a lossy codec. Isn't there any altervative option ?
Especially on Mac, Moho seems to rely on the installed codecs. Maybe you have to install something on your Mac, like the Apple AVFoundation framework.

[slowtiger]

So far I haven't seen any visible colour changes. And I do stuff like having 1 colour in TVP directly on top of the same (RGB value) colour in Moho, so any deviation should be obvious. With PNG codec it's a perfect match. Maybe I should do some some exact measurements?

[Xavier]

Maybe I should do some some exact measurements?

Actually, it could help me if you had a measurement procedure. Basically I'd do screenshots then use any paint tool to read the rgb value of a reference pixel.

Reading a bit more closely this article together with the FFmpeg codec documentation, I believe that it should be possible to add more ProRes 442 and 4444 options.

Would it be worth having these options for MP4 and MKV too ?

[slowtiger]

Let me test a bit ...
Warning: last time someone sent me screenshots to give "exact colours" was a complete desaster, since he didn't think of monitor settings and colour management of his computer. It's possible to compare RGB values within the same program window within the same screenshot, but not between screenshots and other image files. (But of course you know this.)

[D.T. Nethery]

I did some quick tests in the topic where this feature request originated,over in the Technical Support forum:

viewtopic.php?p=130993#p130993

I need to some some more extensive testing , but Slowtiger is correct that screenshots can be deceptive when doing tests on different systems, since a screenshot made from one monitor may not exactly show the same RGB values because the color balance/colorspace on the original monitor is different than someone else's monitor.

Strangest thing about the quick test I did earlier was that the ProRes (lossy) .mov file was LARGER than the PNG (lossless) file .mov file. I would have expected the opposite. I need to try that one again, because it's possible I exported one of those files at a smaller resolution (960 x 540) instead of 1920 x 1080, which might account for the size difference.




UPDATE: well, my curiosity got the best of me, so I had to try another test to compare files sizes between FFMpeg ProRes (lossy) and FFMpeg PNG (lossless). In the earlier test it was a clip 0:04 seconds long , both exports were full HD 1920 x 1080 resolution ,but the FFMpeg ProRes (lossy) file was 36.6 MB and the FFMpeg PNG (lossless) file was only 9.7 MB. Weird. The file size numbers should be reversed . PNG (lossless) should have been a larger file . I can't figure it out.

So, just now I tried another export test . The clip is 0:21 seconds. The FFMpeg ProRes(lossy) mov file is 139.9 MB, whereas the FFMpeg PNG(lossless) mov file is 214.2 MB. This is more like what I would expect , with the PNG(lossless) file being larger than ProRes(lossy) . By the way, notice that AVI_RGBA file is HUGE compared to FFMpeg PNG or FFMpeg ProRes.

Screen Shot 2022-10-18 at 4.27.35 PM.png (47.44 KiB) Viewed 6915 times

On Export Test #2 here is a side-by-side showing the FFMpeg PNG(Lossless) file in VLC Player with the FFMpeg ProRes(Lossy) file in Quicktime Player X. Ideally I would have liked to have shown them side by side in the SAME video player, but FFMpeg PNG will not open in Quicktime Player X and FFMpeg ProRes will not open in VLC ,so there is no way to compare the appearance of the two files in the same video player. However, I do think it's apparent that the FFMpeg ProRes file has less vibrant color. Below the side-by-side comparison is as screenshot of the original artwork in TVPaint.

(click on image to view it larger)

You can't see it in the screenshot above,but when the .mov is playing there is some very noticeable BANDING on the image in the FFMpeg PNG .mov file that is not visible on the FFMpeg ProRes .mov file.

(this is the original, screencaptured from TVPaint)


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[slowtiger]

I created a test file and mailed it to Xavier, let's see what he has to say.

[slowtiger]

Since right now I have 3 different Macs with different OS versions (I postpone the upgrade for this), I did some more testing and found interesting results:

- Exporting to ProRes always changes colours - no matter whether I export from TVP, from Moho, or just convert a PNG video file to ProRes in Quicktime Player. This is something I should have noticed before, but my workflow rarely inculdes ProRes video files going back to TVP, at least they weren't in a critical colour range. The colour change always makes it darker and colours more saturated.

- The colour change is not the same in each combination of software and OS version. This is frustrating.

My procedure was:
- Create the standard colour bars and some assorted palettes imported to TVP. Export from there to:
frame.PNG (to import to Moho)

on OS 10.6:
TVP 10.5:
- PNG.mov
- AVI
- ProRes.mov
TVP 11.0:
- RGB.AVI

on OS 10.11:
TVP 11.0:
- ffmpgRGB.mov

Moho 11:
- PNG.mov
- PNG converted to ProRes.mov (in Quicktime)
- ProRes.mov

on OS 10.15:
TVP 11.7:
- lossless PNG.mov (will not play here, but on older OS)
- lossy ProRes.mov

Moho 11:
- ProRes.mov
Moho 13.5:
- PNG.mov (will not play here, but on older OS)
- ProRes.mov

I also exported to h264 and MP4, just for good measure, as expected they appeared brighter and a bit de-saturated.

All these video files I gathered and imported 1 frame of each into a TVP file. This file I mailed to Xavier. If anyone else is interested in that, just PM me your mail adress.